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From the Ramp: A Small Favor
Evening all. I would just like to say that I, as a ramper, appreciate the hard work and crap you guys go through, and the friendliness and professionalism that you guys deliver to us on a regular basis.
There are some bad apples out there, and to them, I would just like to ask that you please respect the safety of your rampers. It is unacceptable, dangerous, childish and negligent to turn out from a parking space, point your tail towards your rampers and deliver an unusually high amount of thrust (causing the gate agents upstairs to come to the window wondering what was going on), simply because you were wrong about the max which was in plain English on the release that you held in your hands. You blew away our maintenance steps, our bag scanner, almost toppled our carry-on cart, almost tore off half of our raggedy and vacant jetbridge, and worst of all, very nearly picked up one of our rampers and threw him across the ramp. I understand why you guys can get angry and frustrated, I don't blame you. But please do not let your frustrations cause you to neglect safety. Can't we all just get along? I'm sorry for the rant...just needed to get it out. |
as a former ramper, i definitely understand your rant. when those d-bags flew in and decided to show their @$$es with acts very similar to what you've described, i contacted their cp and filed a complaint with hr. this wasn't to "snitch" or "put them out on blast"(no pun intended) but it was to show them that rampers are human beings and would fly across the ramp the same way they would if jet blasted. C.Y.A. and make sure it doesn't happen again.
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Good times...when the Dash 8 and its nearly 14' props pulls into the gate in a blizzard and put the props into disc the rampers all get an elementary school esque' white wash.
Completely unintentional and nothing we can do about it but it is mildly entertaining. On a serious note, we appreciate the hard work that MOST of you guys put in and I enjoy my talks with SOME of you. I prefer the outstations where most are younger pilots working their way towards a goal and are working on their ratings, they are great to talk to. I also appreciate the professionals who do this job for a living and work very hard at it. There are some (cough IAD, EWR, cough) that are there because its a paycheck and move slower than molasses and have the attention to detail of a 3 year old. |
Yeah, I watched one of our company birds blast the rampers - and our boarding pax - in Chattanooga a month ago. Ya'll guys have the worst of it - heat, weather, and having to sometimes come in contact with pax. I try to do what I can to help y'all out - whether it's offering a drink or just a thank you on ops for a job well done. Don't let the jerk get you down, there's plenty of us who appreciate your contribution.
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Fill out a safety report, or talk to your supervisor, send it up the chain. Theres no reason for that kind of behavior and its dangerous. You're the only one who can stop this from this jerk doing it to someone else in the future.
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Originally Posted by joethepilot
(Post 639924)
Fill out a safety report, or talk to your supervisor, send it up the chain. Theres no reason for that kind of behavior and its dangerous. You're the only one who can stop this from this jerk doing it to someone else in the future.
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Originally Posted by joethepilot
(Post 639924)
Fill out a safety report, or talk to your supervisor, send it up the chain. Theres no reason for that kind of behavior and its dangerous. You're the only one who can stop this from this jerk doing it to someone else in the future.
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Does FAYEV = Fayetteville, ASA?
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^
Yes. I should've added, the CP's Office has been notified... We also had another crew witness the event as they were waiting for this guy to leave so they could pull up to the gate. Thanks for the support. I absolutely understand when you guys are in a hurry and may accidentally blast us a little bit every now and then. Nothing that could blast us off our feet though... I also understand that there are some pretty pathetic rampers out there (*cough* ATL ramp & former ASA outstations *cough*). I, for one, love working with those machines that you guys get to fly (I'm working on my ratings) and few things make me prouder than turning out a delayed arrival into an on-time departure, or receiving a "well done" over the ops frequency. |
I spent many years in the right seat and never had a Captain deliberately try and blast the rampers, and I don't do that in the left seat. In fact, never really heard of anyone TRYING to do that. Now having said that, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I will say though that with Delta encouraging single engine taxi, perhaps that's some of the problem. Also, isn't there a pretty immediate turn leaving the Fayetteville ramp, on a bit of a hill?
Thanks for your post. |
It's an immediate right turn out of the spot, but it's fairly flat from my perspective. I realize there's no way to prevent blasting us a little with this turnout, but I've never seen that much thrust used on our ramp, at least not with the rear of the engines pointed towards the terminal, our equipment, and personnel. Even if it wasn't on purpose, it seems quite negligent to use that amount of thrust at that point.
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Originally Posted by FAYEV
(Post 639998)
It's an immediate right turn out of the spot, but it's fairly flat from my perspective. I realize there's no way to prevent blasting us a little with this turnout, but I've never seen that much thrust used on our ramp, at least not with the rear of the engines pointed towards the terminal, our equipment, and personnel. Even if it wasn't on purpose, it seems quite negligent to use that amount of thrust at that point.
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I understand. It does seem quite surprising. To be honest, looking back on it, I think perhaps what may have happened is the CA didn't realize we had an agent in the location where he was, yet I firmly believe he wanted to make a point. Either way, waaaaaay too much thrust for the ramp.
Aside from all that, I do want to say it's a pleasure working with you guys. Unfortunately, I'm going to be leaving in mid-August to transfer up to UND to finish the rest of my ratings. I really do hope to share a cockpit with you guys some day, although many of you would have hopefully moved on to greener pastures by then. Never going to forget my time on the ramp. :) |
One of the things I always wonder is why does it seem like the quality of the ramper at our hubs seems well below that of our out stations?? Is it demographics, wages, training,work ethic, motivation, mind set, cultural differences, weather?, and list could go one I guess... what do you all think
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I saw an incident in Bellingham with an MD80. The captain was turning out of the spot and added far too much power. I was wondering why the rampers were running until I saw the baggage carts flying.
Please always be aware of where your butt is swinging. USMC-SGT- we had another interesting incident with the megawacker. On a freezing rain night in Eugene we parked and went to start/feather on the condition levers. The blades changing angle produced enough thrust to move us forward. We nudged into the tug at the gate. We were extremely thankful the ramper marshaling us was standing on top of the tug rather than in front of it as usual. Our specs changed soon after to include a recommendation to move one engine at a time to start/feather on slippery surfaces. |
While events can happen unintentionally, there does need to be reporting of it. There could be the procedure that needs to be changed or someone needs a slap upside the head, either way it needs to happen before someone gets killed. A little paperwork now could prevent a lot of paperwork in the future.
BTW, rampers are allowed access to NASA's ASRS program. One would use the general reporting form unless a mechanic: ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System A general report a ramper filed on static discharge during a fueling operation due to a new ramp seal made its way up the chain at the airline where I was working, where several ramps were due to be sealed potentially having the same problem. Due to the report, the airline did tests, and the problem was resolved before something bad happened. |
When SMS starts up here in the states, it will provide you all with a great outlet to do this. SMS unlike ASAP incompasses every person involved in operations. From the aircraft cleaning crew and lav dumper, all the way to the CEO. Anyone who has a safety issue can fill out an SMS and it will be processed nonpunitively like the ASAP program..
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Originally Posted by whoareyou310
(Post 640050)
One of the things I always wonder is why does it seem like the quality of the ramper at our hubs seems well below that of our out stations?? Is it demographics, wages, training,work ethic, motivation, mind set, cultural differences, weather?, and list could go one I guess... what do you all think
Hubs = Quantity/Quality?? Outstations = Quality/Quantity?? And another thing, for the ATL ramp at least, Delta rampers are working the ASA flights, rather than ASA rampers. Perhaps they're just not as motivated because it's not their company (and not their Performance Plus bonus checks). Lack of motivation... |
Originally Posted by FAYEV
(Post 639862)
... It is unacceptable, dangerous, childish and negligent to turn out from a parking space, point your tail towards your rampers and deliver an unusually high amount of thrust (causing the gate agents upstairs to come to the window wondering what was going on), simply because you were wrong about the max which was in plain English on the release that you held in your hands........ .
1. Was this the first time Capt operated at your gateway? 2. Just because it looks flat, slope can definitely affect power required to move a plane in a turn, etc. When I was an F/O I didn't really notice the slopes until I sat in the left seat and realized the challenge. 3. Was it a single engine taxi (if so, perhaps a company note to say "No single engine taxi leaving ramp.." 4. Does the operating manual have power limitations for taxi? Ours do, and the F/O has to back up the Capt whose eyes are outside and cannot always tell they are exceeding the limits. 5. Do you have a tug available for the situation that the plane gets 'stuck' leaving a congested ramp so unsafe levels of power are not needed? 6. Should a tug be used to back all aircraft up at your station and position for safer ground/ramp ops? 7. How many similiar incidents at this gateway regarding this type aircraft have been reported? Other aircraft types? 8. Was the aircraft late for departure? 9. Did flight have a departure clearance limitation? 10. Does your operation include a 'ramp brief' outlining personnel locations, identified concerns (heavy weight/ice/contamination, etc)? IS it located in the company gateway notification? Could go on, but simply drawing a conclusion based on perceptions will not arrive at the safest solution. Perhaps your conclusion is correct, but I am more concerned for the long term safety to arrive at a fact based, detailed operations view of the ramp environment and the metrics that affect safety and good business productivity/efficiency. |
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
(Post 640131)
With all due respect, you seemed to have arrived at a conclusion regarding the Captain. As someone as equally interested in safety in tight, obstructed, congested operating areas there are numerous questions that should be asked before drawing a conclusion to truly arrive at a solution.
1. Was this the first time Capt operated at your gateway? Don't know. 2. Just because it looks flat, slope can definitely affect power required to move a plane in a turn, etc. When I was an F/O I didn't really notice the slopes until I sat in the left seat and realized the challenge. I understand. From my perspective, it is flat, but as you mention, I have not had the perspective of a pilot operating an aircraft on this particular ramp. 3. Was it a single engine taxi (if so, perhaps a company note to say "No single engine taxi leaving ramp.." No. I have, however, witnessed (and marshaled) single engine taxi from this position. 4. Does the operating manual have power limitations for taxi? Ours do, and the F/O has to back up the Capt whose eyes are outside and cannot always tell they are exceeding the limits. Don't know. 5. Do you have a tug available for the situation that the plane gets 'stuck' leaving a congested ramp so unsafe levels of power are not needed? We have a "tray-style" pushback unit for such situations. Few of us are trained for its use as our normal procedure is to turn-out aircraft. 6. Should a tug be used to back all aircraft up at your station and position for safer ground/ramp ops? Not of the authority to make that decision. IMHO, no, as pushback would still require the aircraft to turn the tail towards the ramp. 7. How many similiar incidents at this gateway regarding this type aircraft have been reported? Other aircraft types? Cannot say for sure, but I as well as the other personnel on duty that day had not witnessed such an occurrence. Currently, only this type of aircraft is scheduled to operate on this ramp. 8. Was the aircraft late for departure? Yes. Late arrival + disagreement regarding max = late departure. 9. Did flight have a departure clearance limitation? Don't know. 10. Does your operation include a 'ramp brief' outlining personnel locations, identified concerns (heavy weight/ice/contamination, etc)? IS it located in the company gateway notification? All training material and bulletins are accessible to personnel on the company website and on bulletin boards located at the station. Could go on, but simply drawing a conclusion based on perceptions will not arrive at the safest solution. Perhaps your conclusion is correct, but I am more concerned for the long term safety to arrive at a fact based, detailed operations view of the ramp environment and the metrics that affect safety and good business productivity/efficiency. |
Originally Posted by FAYEV
(Post 640141)
I agree. I'm just trying to outline what I witnessed. I, after 8 months of working this ramp, along with other personnel, had not previously witnessed such an intense use of thrust on our ramp. The disagreements between the captain and the station personnel raise suspicions.
A quick 'ramp safety' brief on where wingwalkers, etc and any 'non standard' issues may help resolve future safety concerns. Can't imagine Capts not minding being aware or reviewing safety between the operators before the push. Takes 30 seconds. "We have 2 wing walkers for you, they will stay wth you till..., will exit on the left side of the nose, we have alot of equipment behind you after you turn 45 degree to the right. Have a safe flight" Glad no one was hurt. |
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
(Post 640152)
Understand your suspicions. Agree with absolute desire for professionalism and safety requirements. Problem with 'routine' is also complacency, etc.
A quick 'ramp safety' brief on where wingwalkers, etc and any 'non standard' issues may help resolve future safety concerns. Can't imagine Capts not minding being aware or reviewing safety between the operators before the push. Takes 30 seconds. "We have 2 wing walkers for you, they will stay wth you till..., will exit on the left side of the nose, we have alot of equipment behind you after you turn 45 degree to the right. Have a safe flight" Glad no one was hurt. |
It definitely happens out on the ramp occasionally. I think some of them are intentional and some are not...you can usually tell by the demeanor of the pilots before they get on the plane.
One time I was pushing back an RJ and a maintenance crew on board an MD90 across the way thought it would be a good idea to do a run up at the gate. I ended up getting off the tug and hiding behind it until it was over. Needless to say maintenance got in trouble for that one. Best advice, keep you head up and aware, and report it to ops. if you think it was intentional. The pilot(s) might think its a good idea until a piece of FOD impales a person. |
Originally Posted by FAYEV
(Post 639862)
Evening all. I would just like to say that I, as a ramper, appreciate the hard work and crap you guys go through, and the friendliness and professionalism that you guys deliver to us on a regular basis.
There are some bad apples out there, and to them, I would just like to ask that you please respect the safety of your rampers. It is unacceptable, dangerous, childish and negligent to turn out from a parking space, point your tail towards your rampers and deliver an unusually high amount of thrust (causing the gate agents upstairs to come to the window wondering what was going on), simply because you were wrong about the max which was in plain English on the release that you held in your hands. You blew away our maintenance steps, our bag scanner, almost toppled our carry-on cart, almost tore off half of our raggedy and vacant jetbridge, and worst of all, very nearly picked up one of our rampers and threw him across the ramp. I understand why you guys can get angry and frustrated, I don't blame you. But please do not let your frustrations cause you to neglect safety. Can't we all just get along? I'm sorry for the rant...just needed to get it out. |
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