New Duty and Rest FARs threads?
 

Rumors abound of new rules by the FAA regarding work rules and rest requirements.

Are there any threads? I have looked a bit but find few obvious ones.

What are folks hearing? I have heard stories of a max 12 hour day. 8 hour rest doesn't start until you're at the hotel. And a couple of other things.

IIRC, in Europe we had 13 hour max and each segment above 4 resulted in 1/2 hour less max duty time. E.g. 5 legs = 12:30 max duty, etc.

What are folks hearing?

here is some of the things we are hearing

FROM ANOTHER FORUM
~~~~
I had a long conversation with a member that is helping write the new FAA rules for duty, flying time etc. He said that what they are drafting is going to happen and very quickly. He said they have already heard from large numbers in Congress who are very unhappy about the Colgan accident! They want change and not tired pilots. Here is some of the things he shared with me:

1. Commuters don't have anything to worry about. They know they cannot track where people live or commute from.

2. Duty day will most likely be 12 hours. No increase from the scheduled max of 8 hrs flying time (although he said ALPA tried to get it raised to 9 hrs).

3. Like our 30/7 or 100/30 hour rule (which will probably not change) there will also be a max duty time in a 7 and 30 day period.

4. Your rest period will allow you approx 8 hours at the hotel. Your rest period will not start until you arrive at your hotel. Your duty period will be when you lobby at the hotel. Not when you arrive at the gate.

5. The 9 hr rest period will be gone. Most likely around 10 hour rest period.

6. Duty periods that start late (interfere with your normal circadian rhythm) will be more restrictive than the normal duty period.

7. Reserve blocks will probably be 12 hours. However, reserve blocks late at night might be shorter in concert with the attempt to make shorter duty periods when the duty starts later in the day.

8. Stand-up overnights will most likely be a thing of the past. The later a duty period starts, the sooner it must end.

9. They have also addressed ASAP reports and under the new laws companies could not take any disciplinary action against crews that submit the reports.

10. There is also a group addressing the Flight Attendants. You can expect their duty rules to closely mirror those of the pilots.


The bottom line is they have gathered a lot of data concerning flying long days, multiple stops and schedules that interfere with your bodies circadian rhythm. He also said that they expect to finish work in the next 30 to 60 days and that the airlines will most likely have 180 days to comply.

I have spoken with someone in a management position at my company that went to the Colgan hearings and some of the more current 121 hearings. He said that based on what he has heard, it's a win-lose situation.
Win: 1. some airlines will now have to hire more pilots
2. shorter duty periods
3. no more you started at 3 pm you're good till 7am

Lose: 1. more pilots in bad economy,how will that financially affect airline
2. depending on contract, possibly more days at work
3. depending in contract, possibly lower pay

I'm very cautiously optimistic

Well it is too bad that some ruin it for the rest of us that is that some companies have you work 16 hours but give you good pace to wait but Colgan it was always in a room with nothing to do so the 16 hours were a full 16 hours and they would have you move planes back and forth while waiting there.

If its anything like the rules in the UK you can look forward to more days at work and more, smaller bases.

Talking to friends who operate under the CAA rules most of the regional or low cost type airlines have a lot of their aircraft based at outstations. It allows the airlines to build more efficient schedules under the rules they have. It also means most guys are flying day lines with - as they put it - "very few night stops".

Looking at one of the websites ( pilotsjobnetwork.com ) that shows pay and bases Ryanair has about 200 aircraft and 33 bases and Easy jet 165 and 17 bases. An example of a small regional type would be BMI regional with 18 aircraft and 8 (!) pilot bases.

There is no doubt that the CAA rules are much better from a fatigue point of view, but be careful what you wish for from a QOL point of view. (however, they do get 38 days vacation at BMI regional so that helps!)

From the FAA website
 

Washington Headquarters Press Release
For Immediate Release
July 21, 2009
Contact: Alison Duquette
Phone: (202) 267-3883

Statement by FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt on the First Regional Airline Safety Forum

Today we held the first meeting in what will be a series of 12 nationwide regional airline safety forums to reduce risk at regional airlines. I'm pleased to report that airlines and unions are responding positively to the recent Call to Action from Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood and me to push safety initiatives forward now.

Today's forum was attended by 65 safety executives representing airlines and unions. The discussions focused on air carrier management responsibilities for crew education and support, professional standards and flight discipline, training standards and performance, and mentoring. The FAA will collect effective airline best practices and innovative ideas and share that information with airlines and unions. FAA inspectors will then assess how airlines are using the information.

This open dialogue will continue through August at additional Forums to be held in Dallas/Fort Worth, Chicago, Seattle, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Atlanta, Anchorage, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Denver, St. Louis, Las Vegas, and Boston.

good stuff about what the second post says !

If management is against it, then it means it's good for us.

Commas and periods will help you a great deal. I have no idea what you are saying, is english your primary language? Serious.

Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't have a good set of duty rigs, be prepared for less days off. You want more time in the hotel, your going to get it. Bring the last flight into your destination, now you'll sit in the hotel until the afternoon flight goes out. How much flight time do you think your going to get in a 12 hour duty day if you've got a few hours on the ground between flights?

I think the price that pilots are going to pay for this extra rest is going to prove very high.

How is it my fault (figurative "me") that management is unable to schedule my days without huge sits in the middle? Even if you work at McDonalds, you get paid even if there isn't a customer in the store. Why shouldn't we get paid when we're on duty? Is turning the airplane easier than flying it?

That's why I said Duty Rigs will be the only way to keep some quality of life when you start to see less flight credit per day. The FAA does not care how many days off per month you get as long as you have 1 in 7 off.

All I'm saying is, company's will adjust too the new rules. It's you and I who are going to pay the price with more days away from home.

ALPA Pilots Needed for FAA “Road Shows”

ALPA president Capt. John Prater served as pilot union moderator in Washington, D.C., Tuesday at the first of 12 FAA “Call to Action on Airline Safety and Pilot Training” road shows. The FAA announced at the kick-off Call to Action event on June 15 that these road shows would be scheduled around the United States and that active line-pilot participation would be solicited for each.

ALPA is fully supporting these events and encourages members—especially those who live in or near participating cities—to attend one or more of the meetings and share their perspective on the subjects raised. The FAA has structured these events to facilitate discussion, which will be moderated by selected labor and airline representatives. ALPA is especially interested in having broad representation and constructive participation from its members at these events.

Call to Action is intended to bring together FAA inspectors, airline management, and pilots to discuss the challenges of improving air carrier management support, screening, hiring, training, professional standards, and mentoring at all Part 121 airlines. The first road show this week included a cross section of approximately 75 aviation professionals and regulators.

The 11 remaining road shows are scheduled for the following cities:

July 30 – Dallas/Ft. Worth
July 30 – Chicago
August 4 – Seattle
August 6 – Minneapolis/St. Paul
August 6 – Atlanta
August 6 – Anchorage
August 20 – Miami/Ft. Lauderdale
August 20 – Denver
August 20 – St. Louis
August 27 – Las Vegas
August 27 – Boston

These meetings are closed to both the public and media to facilitate an open and honest exchange of best practices and recommendations. Each road show is scheduled to start at 8:30 a.m. and conclude at 2:00 p.m.

For more information about the agenda, venues, and to register online for these events, please click here. Pre-registration is required to attend. After registering, please send an e-mail to [email protected] and identify yourself as an attendee. Please include your name, airline, phone number, and the city(ies) where you plan to attend.

I wonder if any of this will apply to 135?

Talked to my local FSDO Manager at the gym this morning. Asked him that same question and his response was "Very little, if anything will change with the 135 duty regs, unless of course it involves scheduled passenger service."

It's okay to kill yourself, just not the people behind you.:D

Love me Jeffrey.

Why not 9-10 flight hours and a 12 hour duty day? It was always being up for nearly 16 hours that tired me out, not the actual flying.

This is exactly correct. I would not mind at all in increase of some sort of the block limitation. It is the duty limitation of 16 hours that must go. I also think there should be a correlation between total number of segments scheduled and total block allowed.

And only one LGA turn allowed per week. :D

Because for prop guys that can mean over 10 flights a day. I flew 7:55 in a 13hr duty day the other day and I can tell you it was the 8 legs that killed me, not the 7:55 or the duty day.

I sure dont miss those days..

Then a limit on the number of legs per day so the prop guys don't get screwed?

I think 8 flight 12 duty would really destroy QOL for the majority of pilots. A 9 or 10 flight with 12 duty could get a lot of that back so we don't get less days off per month or make less money.

There is obviously no easy solution.

I know all companies are different and it seems like we (XJT) have some long sits built in to the pairings. But I just looked at my next 6 4-day trips and only 3 had a day with more than 12:00 of duty, and the worst one was 12:05. We don't have any duty rigs, either. A little tweaking and I'd be under 12:00. So although, there may be some changes, it is possible to fly the same amount as we do now and not lose any days off.

Just my $0.02.

It looks like there no one standard reaction.

I was always told by some major airline pilots that were neighbors, that better use of crews(more efficient/effective schedule) was a big problem. I think if the pilots have a good union, the pilots will keep their pay and the company will be forced to create better schedules.

Looking a gift horse in the mouth
 

I'm shocked that I'm reading opposition to a rumored 12 hour duty day limitation amongst professional pilots (though I'm not surprised it is found in this area of the forum). How short-sighted and selfish have we become?

Is your first priority safety, QOL, or pay?

It should be safety. You don't earn much and your quality of LIFE goes downhill really fast if you're in an aircraft accident, especially if you sit in the pointy end, which goes in first. Personal fatigue has proven hard to recognize in scientific studies, but easy to prevent - start each duty period well rested.

For most regional pilots, a 12 hour duty day maximum may mean a pay cut perhaps, primarily b/c regionals don't build their own flight schedules, they are given flights to operate by mainline. Mainline schedules them so that they benefit mainline's efficiency, not your airline's efficiency. Don't like it - don't fly for a regional, there are thousands who will take your place (and, if you work for a regional, your pay is low and there's a pretty good chance your QOL isn't all that great anyway unless you're senior and living in base).

Get a duty rig, increase max days off per bid, increase pay, or increase min guarantee in your next contract. In the mean time, enjoy the extra time @ the hotel, knowing that when you fly you will have the opportunity to be well rested, and therefore a safer pilot. This benefits all the people you fly over each day (the citizens of this country), the government, the industry, your fellow pilots, your passengers, your family, your crew, and, most importantly, YOU.

Not quite sure how you meant that I hope the price is not as high as the passengers in buffalo, or maybe Lexington. It always seems like everyone is quick to point out how it will effect their wallet not the lives of the folks you are supposed to be safely flying...once again maybe I read that wrong and you meant safety first

Hi!

I am flying under Kenyan CAA Intntl rules. 15 hour duty day/15 hour flight day. MINIMUM rest is 11 hours, non-reduceable. If you actually have a 15 hour day, it is 17 hours of rest (16 for a 14 hour day).

cliff
NBO

Ahh how about a min pay/leg. $100 Captains $75 F/O's.

Sure go ahead and schedule me for 8 legs.

We can do it. It might be the beer talking but... the old pay/flight hour is old. We need pay/duty time.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

Hi!

The Seattle Times:
"...Rep. Jerry Costello, chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee's aviation subcommittee, told a hearing Thursday he's fed up with waiting for the Federal Aviation Administration and the airline industry to act on safety recommendations. He said he will try to force action through legislation.
"I do not believe we can rely on airlines to voluntarily comply with industry best practices," the Illinois Democrat said.
...
"It's one thing to fly one eight-hour leg from here to Paris. It's another thing to fly seven hours and make 14 stops and never leave the state of Florida, and I have done that," Babbitt (the new FAA Administrator) said."

cliff
NBO

And James May has his head up J.O.'s ass, all he can see is crap!

I personally welcome better rest rules, I don't try to maximize days off, I'm able to bid 2 & 3 day trips with good rest. However, most pilots try and bid for the most days off they can get, and I was trying to point out that shorter duty days and more rest well equal less days off. I will bet most pilots are not going to like that.

Just my opinion here: I dont mind the occasional loooong day (16 hrs is extreme), what fatigues me most however is 8 hrs from gate to gate. Nothing like 12 hrs duty followed by one hour to get checked in, one hour to get dinner and wind down, 5 hours of sleep, one hour to get ready for the van time (no time for a good breakfast here, besides its 4 am, where am I gonna eat at this hour??) and another 12 hour duty day again today to make me the most tired. MIN 10 hours BEHIND THE DOOR is what I need to be safe!

Hi!

Congress to toughen airline standards (Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009) - USATODAY.com

• "Require that all airline pilots obtain an Airline Transport Pilot license, which is currently only needed by captains. Pilots must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours to obtain the license....

cliff
NBO