fatigue and ASAP
 

I've heard some airlines are requiring an ASAP report to be filed when calling in fatigued. Apparently a 5am show day one through 3 followed by an after midnight return on day four needs clarification.

Keep in mind that your ASAP reports will be reviewed by a committee that will include an FAA representitive.
Now I'm not saying that this is going to open the FAA's eyes to the egregious scheduling that goes on around the industry, but on the other hand, if it's not reported, then it didn't happen. If your pilot group has any inclination to fight scheduling in general, or a specific pairing in particular, then the more "ammunition" you've got, the better.

Hog

While most view ASAP as a way to "get out of jail free" it is more effectively used as a tool to monitor unsafe trends. You do not have to screw something up (alt or nav deviation etc) in order to fill out an ASAP...even though that is probably the most common use.

I'm not sure if most ASAP programs work exactly the same, but ours has 3 people that review it. A company guy, a union guy, and a fed...if enough ASAPs get filled out for a certain condition (fatiguing scheds, sick call harassment, pressure to fly broken planes, etc) then more than likely your company's FSDO will put some pressure on the company to stop these practices. Also my ASAP program has an option where all you do is check a box and it will send out a NASA form as well. With the NASA form filled out then maybe the attention brought will be on a national level.

While it takes a while to fill out. It more than likely is worth it. I have no idea what the chances are, but ASAP reports may be used to help set up the new guidlines for crew rest and duty times...but at the very least it may cause your FSDO to pressure your company to stop some of the practices that lead to fatigue and pilot pushing.

ASAP reports are turned in to the FAA, this could be a way to encourage people not to call in fatigue as much

Exactly

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what is everyone's (company) policy on pay & Fatigue calls. XJT is paid out of sick bank I dunno if thats an industry wide thing?

That is what you management wants you to do. And that my friend is called Pilot Pushing. In 5 years at OH, I called in fatigued twice and filed an ASAP both times after I was threatened by a chief pilot the first time that I was going to be disciplined. Fill out the ASAP and that will be the last that you here of it. From you company anyway!

That's not entirely accurate.

ASAP reports are not "turned in" to the FAA, rather they are reviewed by the ASAP ERC (Event Review Committee), which includes reps from the company, union/pilot group and FAA.

If the FAA ERC rep sees a substantial and/or increasing number of fatigue-related ASAPs, he/she can start working with the company & pilot group ERC reps to eliminate the causes of those reports in the interest of improved safety.

Pay for fatigue? LOL

I don't understand what is so funny.

Say a hotel fire alarm goes whacko at 1AM and everyone has to stand outside from then until 2:30AM when the fire department lets them back in, and the crew has a 5AM van to the airport for a flight back to the hub and then a turn following that.

Should the crew really feel a loss of pay for saying, "hey, we'll get back to the hub but we're going to be far too tired to do that turn afterwards because of what happened during the night."

I think they should be paid 100% for it and the sick bank is an appropriate way of doing that.

Quite possibly the most ignorant post I've seen in a while. Sorry friend, but as stated earlier ASAP is a non-punitive safety tool to asses trends and improve safety. The ERC board is made up of the Union, the company, and the FAA, and I've yet to see anyone get reprimanded for a fatigue call here at XJT after they ASAP it. In fact, it's helping to educate the masses not just pairing construction and managing schedules, but on the science behind it all.

Do you guys even have ASAP at your carrier? Are you familiar with the amount of data, and the positive impact it has on safety?

A little education won't hurt before making statements about things you clearly aren't familiar with.

goaround

Sorry my comment was misinterpreted.

He asked if we were paid for fatigue. At my company the answer is NO! Not Ever!

IMHO if the fault is with the schedule, then the company should pay. If it is no ones fault (fire alarm), we spilt it. If it is my fault (I have a second job), then no pay.

Unfortunately, at my company, if one calls fatigue, pay is forfeited no matter the reason. Also, my boss' opinion is "you cannot know you will be fatigued in the future." So, that means I cannot say, "I'll get it back to the hub, but have a reservist ready." Instead, I must wait until a point in time and say "I am fatigued NOW." and screw my coworkers, my pax, and the mainline I serve.

Common sense is as rare as diamonds and valued less than mud.

Not meaning to pick a fight, but.....

For some of us is it "non punitive". So, when upgrade time comes, a few too many ASAPs for the wrong reason could keep us in the right seat.

I think your boss has an asinine way of thinking!

Imagine a crew getting ready to launch from a west coast city at 11PM flying the redeye to a midwest/east coast destination, landing around 5AM. Inevitably they're both running on less than a full night's sleep due to the fact that the schedule only allows for a nap before reporting for duty.

So scheduling has dispatch send them an ACARS shortly before pushback saying "you're going to do a quick BDL turn after you land in JFK. Duty time will be 12:00 and block time will be 7:00 total so you're good to go. Released at 1PM."

Any crewmember in that position would know right then and there, that they can accurately predict fatigue in the future. Their nap will get them through their redeye to the east coast but after the sun comes up they are not going to be alert enough to keep on going.

Yet your boss wants them to wait until they land at 5AM to call in fatigued! :eek:

This is the bizarre, nonsensical thinking in this line of work that I will never understand.

Common sense is apparently rare indeed!

and yet more proof that not all regionals are the same....

You call CS and let them know that you have had a severe rest disruption and you push the show time back. If you haven't had enough rest to do the turn then you likely are not going to be sufficiently rested to fly back to the hub to begin with. It is not ok to limp back into base when you are not fit to fly in the first place.

A word of caution...the ASAP system is intended to protect you from "unintentional" violations.

If nothing bad happened, an asap can be used to increase company/FAA awareness of the issue. But if a possible violation occurred, flying fatigued would be considered intentional, and an asap might get rejected.

We have ASAP reports a my carrier, I am familiar with the data, I've sent in one or two in the last 8 years, and I flew for XJT before my current job.

sorrry my ignorant post didn't meet your standards, I'll try to do some research next time I post, wouldn't want to disappoint you again

At my company you lose all pay if you call in fatigued. Then you get threatened with a trip to the CP's office to explain yourself. Then you have to give a written explanation detailing the events that lead to your fatigued status, if they are satisfied with the letter then no trip to the CP's office, if they want more info you get called into the CP's office so you can explain in person.

I agree, it would depend on the situation.

I can see myself being able to fly safely for a 1-2 hour flight in certain situations, but ruling out anything longer than that.

Other things might require doing what you wrote, telling them that even the first flight is not going to be possible at the original time.

As a follow-up to what I just posted, what I am comparing it to is a redeye flight.

I think many people could consider that limping back to the hub, right off the bat as scheduled. :(

At Eagle, lineholders get the credit for the flights they fatigued removed initially. Then the pilot submits a fatigue review form which is reviewed by the VP of flight ops and a union rep. If the fatigue is "justified" the pay is restored. ALL the people I know (including me) who have submitted a fatigue review have had their pay restored. It usually takes a month or two. Our CEO even wrote us a letter saying we need to take it upon ourselves to be removed from a flight if we are not fit.

For reserves, if you have flown over 3.9 hours and call in fatigued you have no pay/credit removed. If you have flown less than 3.9 you have to do the process above.