Worth the Hardwork or not?
07-22-2006, 02:45 PM
#91
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Common Error
Originally Posted by ChrisH
I know people who work in many different career fields in various locations across the country. None of them make more than, or much more than even a regional captain. The average salary in the United States today, is about $39,000 per year. A regional captain makes more than that. In some cases, double that. The average starting salary out of college today is about $30,000 to $35,000; your typical FO salary after first year.
Most career fields, and by most, I mean the majority of the career fields people go into, will not pay, topped off, much more than in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range. Are there people, and jobs that make more than that? Of course, but that is not anywhere near the majority.
I know some of you will bring up this friend of a friend who left college and got a starting salary of $70,000 per year. I know pilots who got jobs with starting salaries in that range; they went corporate, or some other route than the airlines, either by knowing someone, or being in the right place at the right time. It happens, even to pilots. But, for the majority of people, pilots or not, you have to start somewhere.
My sister has a business degree and her first job was making $26,000 per year. I have a friend who has a degree in computer information systems, he is currently making $10 per hour. I have another friend/co-worker who graduated with a degree in marketing. It took him nearly 6 months to even find a job. He only recently got one, a few weeks ago, and he isn't making but about $30,000, if that. One job he applied for, which involved marketing for a state golf association was only going to pay him $17,000 per year. And each of these people graduated with a GPA above a 3.0.
Fact is, other than first year FO pay, pilots make as much or more than what others make in other career fields. The difference is you don't have to sit behind a desk, and computer 8 hours a day entering data, or writing up reports.
The economy is having problems, the airlines as a result are suffering. Yes things could be better, but it looks like things are improving. We have Continental hiring, American making a 2Q profit, United recalling, Delta announcing that they are recalling some this summer, USAirways recalling, and NorthWest has said recalls are possiblen next year. Things will get better.
ALSO... Trust me when I say that other industries are suffering just as much. A lot of people have had pay cut, pensions cuts, etc. I know many people who have had to deal with that, who read stuff in these message boards, and wonder why pilots think they are alone.
Most career fields, and by most, I mean the majority of the career fields people go into, will not pay, topped off, much more than in the $60,000 to $80,000 per year range. Are there people, and jobs that make more than that? Of course, but that is not anywhere near the majority.
I know some of you will bring up this friend of a friend who left college and got a starting salary of $70,000 per year. I know pilots who got jobs with starting salaries in that range; they went corporate, or some other route than the airlines, either by knowing someone, or being in the right place at the right time. It happens, even to pilots. But, for the majority of people, pilots or not, you have to start somewhere.
My sister has a business degree and her first job was making $26,000 per year. I have a friend who has a degree in computer information systems, he is currently making $10 per hour. I have another friend/co-worker who graduated with a degree in marketing. It took him nearly 6 months to even find a job. He only recently got one, a few weeks ago, and he isn't making but about $30,000, if that. One job he applied for, which involved marketing for a state golf association was only going to pay him $17,000 per year. And each of these people graduated with a GPA above a 3.0.
Fact is, other than first year FO pay, pilots make as much or more than what others make in other career fields. The difference is you don't have to sit behind a desk, and computer 8 hours a day entering data, or writing up reports.
The economy is having problems, the airlines as a result are suffering. Yes things could be better, but it looks like things are improving. We have Continental hiring, American making a 2Q profit, United recalling, Delta announcing that they are recalling some this summer, USAirways recalling, and NorthWest has said recalls are possiblen next year. Things will get better.
ALSO... Trust me when I say that other industries are suffering just as much. A lot of people have had pay cut, pensions cuts, etc. I know many people who have had to deal with that, who read stuff in these message boards, and wonder why pilots think they are alone.
It is a common mistake to only look at the high points of an airline career. If you were to take into consideration all the wasted years leading up to the captain job, education, training costs, moving expenses, lost wages, layoffs and commuting costs I am sure that you would most likely be better off to work at a gas station in your home town. By the time you have reached the better wages you will be perhaps 15 to 20 years older than you are right now. (Had you simply joined the army you would be far better off and retired by then.) I think you should consider the entire costs of an aviation career spread out over 20 to 30 years. In my area a kid without a high school diploma who will show up to the job site most days and work can earn more than most regional captains swinging a hammer.
SKyHigh
07-22-2006, 06:00 PM
#93
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
I agree !!
Originally Posted by cjdriver
It's quite simple, if this is a dream you've had since you were a kid, you have to do it. If you don't, you'll live you're whole life wishing you had. Life is short, fly fast my friend.
He is absolutely right! If flying is in your blood then you had better do it.
It is important to remember however that we can have most anything in life but not everything. As with every choice there is a price. You had better understand what you will be giving up before signing up.
SkyHigh
07-23-2006, 12:07 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
He is absolutely right! If flying is in your blood then you had better do it.
It is important to remember however that we can have most anything in life but not everything. As with every choice there is a price. You had better understand what you will be giving up before signing up.
SkyHigh
It is important to remember however that we can have most anything in life but not everything. As with every choice there is a price. You had better understand what you will be giving up before signing up.
SkyHigh
I've told you I respect you, and your opinions, and consider you a friend. I think in this respect, we do have varying opinions, but let me explain where mine comes from.
I am not going to Embry-Riddle, or some flight academy where I am going to spend $100K for my ratings, and a degree. I am getting my ratings at a local FBO with an instructor who is free-lance. He has actually offered me a lot of deals, and I can get my ratings for less than $20K with him. I will not be in debt from this, and will not owe anything, or anything more than the typical person coming out of college.
Average starting salary out of college right now is in the neighborhood of $35K per year, depending on the degree; some make more, some less, but that is the average. As a regional FO, after first year, I will not be making any less, necessarily, than most people starting out after college. You have to start somewhere. Just like someone doesn't start out as the CEO of some company, you aren't going to start out as a captain for FedEx making $200K per year.
Regional pilots do not make $30K per year forever. People pass it off as though you spend $100K for a $20K per year job. Not the case. Anywhere from 2 to 4 years later, and you upgrade to captain. Your salary nearly doubles, if not, doubles at that point. Most regional captains I have talked to are making in the area of between $60K to $80K per year. While that still is not some drastic number, people in other careers usually never make more, or much more than those figures. My Dad is a department director at a hospital, and has been working at this hospital for 22 years. He only recently received a raise that put his salary at the $80K per year mark, and he is 56, so not too far from retirement. It will not take me 15 years or 22 years to reach that kind of salary, or close to it, even at a regional; well, most regionals; the "decent" ones. And, 22 years from now, I would have to assume I will be at a major. Even if things stay as they are with the industry, I fail to see how someone couldn't eventually get on with a major during that time frame.
I should also point out, and I am sure you are well aware of this; people are experiencing many of the hardships pilots are experiencing in industries across the board. A lot of people have had to take pay cuts, a lot of people have had to deal with pension cuts, and other benefit cuts, etc. Airlines are not alone. Doctors are paying ridiculous amounts out of their pocket in mal-practive, etc., now days, not to mention they are often times well in access of $100K in debt from medical school.
07-23-2006, 01:00 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Originally Posted by ChrisH
Average starting salary out of college right now is in the neighborhood of $35K per year, depending on the degree; some make more, some less, but that is the average. As a regional FO, after first year, I will not be making any less, necessarily, than most people starting out after college. You have to start somewhere. Just like someone doesn't start out as the CEO of some company, you aren't going to start out as a captain for FedEx making $200K per year.
Regional pilots do not make $30K per year forever. People pass it off as though you spend $100K for a $20K per year job. Not the case. Anywhere from 2 to 4 years later, and you upgrade to captain. Your salary nearly doubles, if not, doubles at that point. Most regional captains I have talked to are making in the area of between $60K to $80K per year. While that still is not some drastic number, people in other careers usually never make more, or much more than those figures. My Dad is a department director at a hospital, and has been working at this hospital for 22 years. He only recently received a raise that put his salary at the $80K per year mark, and he is 56, so not too far from retirement. It will not take me 15 years or 22 years to reach that kind of salary, or close to it, even at a regional; well, most regionals; the "decent" ones. And, 22 years from now, I would have to assume I will be at a major. Even if things stay as they are with the industry, I fail to see how someone couldn't eventually get on with a major during that time frame.
Regional pilots do not make $30K per year forever. People pass it off as though you spend $100K for a $20K per year job. Not the case. Anywhere from 2 to 4 years later, and you upgrade to captain. Your salary nearly doubles, if not, doubles at that point. Most regional captains I have talked to are making in the area of between $60K to $80K per year. While that still is not some drastic number, people in other careers usually never make more, or much more than those figures. My Dad is a department director at a hospital, and has been working at this hospital for 22 years. He only recently received a raise that put his salary at the $80K per year mark, and he is 56, so not too far from retirement. It will not take me 15 years or 22 years to reach that kind of salary, or close to it, even at a regional; well, most regionals; the "decent" ones. And, 22 years from now, I would have to assume I will be at a major. Even if things stay as they are with the industry, I fail to see how someone couldn't eventually get on with a major during that time frame.
I'm not sure where you got that $35K out of college number. If you have a source, I'd like to know what it is. But as with any statistic, you have to take it with a grain of salt. One can be a college grad and not motivated to pursue a high paying job (I am a regional pilot after all
) Or vice versa. I have known guys without a high school diploma or GED making in excess of $50k/yr. You assume you will upgrade in 2 to 4 years. You will learn that in this industry you can NOT assume anything. When you assume you make an ass out of you and yourself. What happens if you get on with a company (ie Trans States) get real close to upgrade and then the rug gets pulled out from under you. All of a sudden they are down grading captains and you, who thought you were about to upgrade and that life would be grand, now youre looking at a reserve line or even a furlough. Now you gotta go to a new company and start all over again. So you spent 3 years at company A and just barely missed that upgrade and now you are at company B and looking at another 3-4 years for an upgrade, etc etc. If you think this is unrealistic, just hang out at the airport for a while.
I also think its laughable that you assume it will not take you any longer than 15-22 years to see $80K year. Do you know what happens when you change companies, voluntarily or not? You go to the bottom of the ol' pay scale. So look and compare your 6 year captain pay at what you consider the "decent" regionals with 1st year pay at the majors. Big drop. Remember you also go back onto reserve. So you go from making $75/hr with 100 hour lines and 18 days off a month to making $40/hr with a 70 hour reserve line. Do the math. You just took a 63% pay cut. Think the mortgage company will cut your mortgage payment by 63%? Think the bank will drop your car payment by 63%? Think your credit card company will cut your payments by 63%? I work for ExpressJet and I know of many captains who have decided to stay here because the jump down in pay if they went to a major was just too much. Some of the senior guys I have talked to have said it would take them as long as 12 years at a major before they BROKE EVEN with where they are now! (that takes into account the decrease in pay, quality of life, commuting, crash pads, etc). There are a lot of folks who would rather be home for their kid's little league game or birthday or christmas than make a few more bucks an hour flying a bigger, shinier airplane.
The bottom line is this: don't get into this profession for the money or you will be sorely disappointed. The guys who whine and complain the loudest are the ones who thought they were going to work 10 days a month and make $250K/year. Don't put the blinders on. Always keep your eyes and ears open and don't drink too much kool-aid. I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing what you want to do, just trying to get you to think about the big picture.
Last edited by freezingflyboy; 07-23-2006 at 01:04 PM.
07-23-2006, 01:21 PM
#96
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Yes
ChrisH,
FreezingFlyboy wrote it better than I could. The bottom line is that you will not earn more. Most likely you will burn 60 to 100K only to discover that it is a hard and sometimes miserable job that pays 18K. Someday you might move up to a better situation but by then you will be much older and so in debt that it really will not matter.
SkyHigh
Lets start small.
1. How will you pay for training?
2. How will you survive the next 5 to 7 years of earning 12 to 22 K per year?
3. What else could you be doing with that time and money?
FreezingFlyboy wrote it better than I could. The bottom line is that you will not earn more. Most likely you will burn 60 to 100K only to discover that it is a hard and sometimes miserable job that pays 18K. Someday you might move up to a better situation but by then you will be much older and so in debt that it really will not matter.
SkyHigh
Lets start small.
1. How will you pay for training?
2. How will you survive the next 5 to 7 years of earning 12 to 22 K per year?
3. What else could you be doing with that time and money?
07-23-2006, 06:36 PM
#97
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
hey skyhigh,
i know i was chimed in earlier, but was just thinking. While your points seem to be very well inline w/ what was stated by freezingboy, but for some reason, i seem to see his point more...think the thing is the conotation that comes along w/ the message. Yours seems a tad on the negative side, his is on the, well, you ain't gonna get rich side....
A lot of people wanna fly big shiney things, alot don't, some wanna go fast, some wanna go slow, etc. So, i see both points, but words like "burn a 100k" and "miserable job that pays 18K" while both might be true, it's not burning if it's valuable is it? the comparison was made about Doctors earlier, and as well know, they normally do come out of medical school in greater debt than just about all aviation majors, when their finally finish, they do a residency for several years, then, finally get on salary making decent money, but as stated before, a large cost of that money goes back to paying for their insurance covering lawsuits...once again, all relative, we're not going to be rich, and we might be poor for a while, but, thats just the way the world works.
PS-
Why'd u get into aviation skyhigh? and where'd u get ur training, etc?...you seem to have a grudge.
i know i was chimed in earlier, but was just thinking. While your points seem to be very well inline w/ what was stated by freezingboy, but for some reason, i seem to see his point more...think the thing is the conotation that comes along w/ the message. Yours seems a tad on the negative side, his is on the, well, you ain't gonna get rich side....
A lot of people wanna fly big shiney things, alot don't, some wanna go fast, some wanna go slow, etc. So, i see both points, but words like "burn a 100k" and "miserable job that pays 18K" while both might be true, it's not burning if it's valuable is it? the comparison was made about Doctors earlier, and as well know, they normally do come out of medical school in greater debt than just about all aviation majors, when their finally finish, they do a residency for several years, then, finally get on salary making decent money, but as stated before, a large cost of that money goes back to paying for their insurance covering lawsuits...once again, all relative, we're not going to be rich, and we might be poor for a while, but, thats just the way the world works.
PS-
Why'd u get into aviation skyhigh? and where'd u get ur training, etc?...you seem to have a grudge.
07-23-2006, 07:44 PM
#98
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Grudge?
Originally Posted by flynavyj
hey skyhigh,
i know i was chimed in earlier, but was just thinking. While your points seem to be very well inline w/ what was stated by freezingboy, but for some reason, i seem to see his point more...think the thing is the conotation that comes along w/ the message. Yours seems a tad on the negative side, his is on the, well, you ain't gonna get rich side....
A lot of people wanna fly big shiney things, alot don't, some wanna go fast, some wanna go slow, etc. So, i see both points, but words like "burn a 100k" and "miserable job that pays 18K" while both might be true, it's not burning if it's valuable is it? the comparison was made about Doctors earlier, and as well know, they normally do come out of medical school in greater debt than just about all aviation majors, when their finally finish, they do a residency for several years, then, finally get on salary making decent money, but as stated before, a large cost of that money goes back to paying for their insurance covering lawsuits...once again, all relative, we're not going to be rich, and we might be poor for a while, but, thats just the way the world works.
PS-
Why'd u get into aviation skyhigh? and where'd u get ur training, etc?...you seem to have a grudge.
i know i was chimed in earlier, but was just thinking. While your points seem to be very well inline w/ what was stated by freezingboy, but for some reason, i seem to see his point more...think the thing is the conotation that comes along w/ the message. Yours seems a tad on the negative side, his is on the, well, you ain't gonna get rich side....
A lot of people wanna fly big shiney things, alot don't, some wanna go fast, some wanna go slow, etc. So, i see both points, but words like "burn a 100k" and "miserable job that pays 18K" while both might be true, it's not burning if it's valuable is it? the comparison was made about Doctors earlier, and as well know, they normally do come out of medical school in greater debt than just about all aviation majors, when their finally finish, they do a residency for several years, then, finally get on salary making decent money, but as stated before, a large cost of that money goes back to paying for their insurance covering lawsuits...once again, all relative, we're not going to be rich, and we might be poor for a while, but, thats just the way the world works.
PS-
Why'd u get into aviation skyhigh? and where'd u get ur training, etc?...you seem to have a grudge.
You got me. I do have a grudge. It is my contention that for most aviation is a very expensive endeavor that hardly has the opportunity to pay back the cost of training and education let alone provide a living. I got into aviation back in the mid 1980's when it was far more common to get on with the majors at a young enough age to be able to make something out of it. By the time I had graduated for college things had already changed. Throughout the years I have struggled along with my peers and watched as they fell one by one.
I don't know what your goals are but mine were to have a satisfying career and to have a better life than I would have had I never en cured the costs of training and education. At my last job I was a 757 FO flying across the country almost daily and my take home pay was $1100 every two weeks. A few of my coworkers figured that after they subtracted for crash pads and commuting expenses they took home around $750.
My experience is not all that uncommon. Take a look around. The regionals are hiring but they are not really growing that much. Most of the attrition must be coming from disgruntled and disappointed pilots who are quitting in despair. I can tell by your postings that you will just have to see for yourself. I hope it is worth it to you.
As a doctor it is almost certain that someday they will earn a good living. If you don't make it in medicine the education and training is highly valued in many other fields. Pilots have almost the same sacrifice in years and expense but all they get is a weak maybe. And the left over results are next to worthless.
SkyHigh
Yes I have a grudge. I feel that aviation takes far more than it gives in return. At some point we all have to make a living.
07-23-2006, 09:01 PM
#99
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
sorry to hear, sounds like a rough time, and maybe just a bad turn of luck (timing, etc). I take what i can from everyone, do live in the "show-me" state, but, if i can, i'll avoid being shown on this one. For anyone else that happens to look @ this, remember that your aviation degree can be put to other uses, not necessarily just flying. These uses are normally in the industry however, and depending on your background, there are many more "steady" jobs out there, still related to aviation, but away from airlines or even flying.
If ya wanted to hear my original desire, it was to fly w/ the military, that moved away slowly, airlines seemed like a better deal...wasn't hoping to get "rich", however was still hoping to make a living. Like the rest of the naieve, i still believe i'll be able to do so. For the typical guys who are fresh outta college, the thought of making 25,000 a year doesn't seem that daunting, reason is we're normally making 8k a year and still "somehow" ifnding a way to survive. As a CFI, i'm only getting 10.50/hr, if i was on salary at the wage, i could survive a lot better, w/o salary, it's a struggle, but do-able, thusfar all my buddies who've gone regionals aren't rich, but...they can still afford to buy us all drinks on the weekends, and...for the time being, that'll suffice.
If ya wanted to hear my original desire, it was to fly w/ the military, that moved away slowly, airlines seemed like a better deal...wasn't hoping to get "rich", however was still hoping to make a living. Like the rest of the naieve, i still believe i'll be able to do so. For the typical guys who are fresh outta college, the thought of making 25,000 a year doesn't seem that daunting, reason is we're normally making 8k a year and still "somehow" ifnding a way to survive. As a CFI, i'm only getting 10.50/hr, if i was on salary at the wage, i could survive a lot better, w/o salary, it's a struggle, but do-able, thusfar all my buddies who've gone regionals aren't rich, but...they can still afford to buy us all drinks on the weekends, and...for the time being, that'll suffice.
07-23-2006, 09:11 PM
#100
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Good
Originally Posted by flynavyj
sorry to hear, sounds like a rough time, and maybe just a bad turn of luck (timing, etc). I take what i can from everyone, do live in the "show-me" state, but, if i can, i'll avoid being shown on this one. For anyone else that happens to look @ this, remember that your aviation degree can be put to other uses, not necessarily just flying. These uses are normally in the industry however, and depending on your background, there are many more "steady" jobs out there, still related to aviation, but away from airlines or even flying.
If ya wanted to hear my original desire, it was to fly w/ the military, that moved away slowly, airlines seemed like a better deal...wasn't hoping to get "rich", however was still hoping to make a living. Like the rest of the naieve, i still believe i'll be able to do so. For the typical guys who are fresh outta college, the thought of making 25,000 a year doesn't seem that daunting, reason is we're normally making 8k a year and still "somehow" ifnding a way to survive. As a CFI, i'm only getting 10.50/hr, if i was on salary at the wage, i could survive a lot better, w/o salary, it's a struggle, but do-able, thusfar all my buddies who've gone regionals aren't rich, but...they can still afford to buy us all drinks on the weekends, and...for the time being, that'll suffice.
If ya wanted to hear my original desire, it was to fly w/ the military, that moved away slowly, airlines seemed like a better deal...wasn't hoping to get "rich", however was still hoping to make a living. Like the rest of the naieve, i still believe i'll be able to do so. For the typical guys who are fresh outta college, the thought of making 25,000 a year doesn't seem that daunting, reason is we're normally making 8k a year and still "somehow" ifnding a way to survive. As a CFI, i'm only getting 10.50/hr, if i was on salary at the wage, i could survive a lot better, w/o salary, it's a struggle, but do-able, thusfar all my buddies who've gone regionals aren't rich, but...they can still afford to buy us all drinks on the weekends, and...for the time being, that'll suffice.
SkyHigh
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