Worth the Hardwork or not?
 

I know that people have talked about it over and over again about if the regionals are worth shooting for and I would like some advice, some positive advice and encouragment. To give you some background im going to be attending the flight officer program at central washington university this fall and upon completion and assuming i have enough hours from flight instructing would like to end up in a regional preferrably Horizon which has a partnership with CWU and occasionally from what I hear ask for pilots to be interviewed. I currently have a PPL with 80 hours TT in 150's and 172's and a lot of time on microsoft flight simulator which helped spark my love for flying and taught me a great deal, it's nice to already have an upper hand on things coming into the program. However I am somewhat I guess frustrated by how people coin the regionals as such a negative place. No not everyone but i've read many posts on this forum bashing the regionals saying don't degrade yourself to work for one of them the pay is bad the work hours long the QOL poor and you're life will be a mess paying bills and trying to just get by.it's not like I am going into this with little knowledge of what Im going to be shooting for. I know 4 years is a long way a way and a lot could change but to be honest its also not that far away because I have already made the decision to get my "parents" to invest money into making me a professional pilot and completing the 4 year program at CWU. It's not that I am ignoring other people's advice not to start a career in the regionals, it's not like I do not know the various insecurities and complexities of the job, I've been researching and exploring the topic since I was 14 years old I guess I just want someone who flies for a regional to encourage me to give me not necessarily reassurance since I know the field has quite a bit of instability but a positive outlook on how it could be beneficial and how I'm making a good decision instead of all these other folks who have to negate the job and point out every one of its flaws. i care little for the military route I don't want to fly cargo or corporate I want to fly for the regionals and move on to the majors if I get the chance. Sure some of these people are smart and experienced in the field and there is certainly some truth in their words and I respect them. I understand many of these people had bad experiences and some on this forum use their experience to discourage others from signing on to an airline job. that's what I question. I want to prove these people wrong I want to prove I can succeed and maybe be a small part that helps to rectify and reglorify the industry as a whole and give it some credibility that it seems to lack in this day and age. Maybe Im overanalyzing maybe im being over the top in my approach towards things. Im 19 years old i have hardly any1 around my age who can relate to me besides my parents and friends who encourage me to follow my dream, there's no one out there it seems like who's my age and wants to do what I want to who can say look you can do it and you can feel good about what you do and we're here to back you and encourage you in your quest. Comments appreciated regards, Chris

I guess I can't really give professional advice but, is it worth it to you? To you personally is it worth the risks you of possibly never making it onto a major? Of possibly getting furloughed? Only one of two things will happen; you'll either crash and burn(no pun) or you'll succeed. If you know all of the risks and accept them all, then you know what to do.

This may draw some flames, but I just don't care, because it is the truth to me...

Flying is in my blood. It's what I do. Granted, several other things are in my blood (golfing, running, talking too much) that keep me a well-rounded person, but when it comes to jobs that pay, I just can't see myself doing anything else. In fact, I have done other things, and hated them passionately. While some jobs will pay better, many of those jobs will have you sitting at your keyboard for at least eight hours per day, going nowhere. Trying not to fall asleep after lunch is your excitement for the day. One cream or two in your coffee is a big decision. And when it comes down to it, your "view" consists of the same people, the same desk, etc. etc.

It's tough. It's been tough already. And it is probably going to get tougher. But that is life. Best of luck...chase your dreams.

Just don't spend too much money to get to a regional because you will never be able to make it back. Seems like you are pretty firmly set on your path which is both good and bad. You have to watch out that you don't get so focused on flying an RJ that you miss other oppurtunities that might come your way. I guess I would sum up my advice as this:
-Don't go nuts with your training expenses. Beg, borrow and steal as much multi time as you can to help keep costs down.
-Keep your options open. Some of the best, most interesting pilots I know took roundabout routes to the airlines.
-Don't fall in love with any airline because they will all break your heart.

Here's some advice: when the time comes, have someone else write your cover letter.

Still waiting to hear from Skyhigh and Browntail

Choices
 

CWU Dude,

In the end it is only your choice to make. Finding your place in this world can be a difficult thing to do. If you feel that aviation is someplace to invest yourself then perhaps you should explore it.

Your pal and CWU alumni,

SkyHigh


PS. if you respect yourself at all I would get a business degree or something else. Flight tech at CWU is an expensive dead end.

Agreed. Can't go wrong with a 'fall back' degree.

well i appreciate all of your insight so far...some of you have had some interesting things to say i appreciate the realistic perspectives from both kansas and freezingflyboy. skyhigh almost pleasantly surprised me until the little p.s. comment haha...a business degree? majoring in something else? i guess we have two different perspectives...i want college to be a place I can look back on and said I had a meaningful and valuable four years at a place I can always say Ill remember and cherish and have an emotional attachment too..something I cant say for my high school experience. i've been looking forward to this for so long i get to go far away from the arid and mundane surroundings of southern arizona and come fly in one of the most beautiful parts of the world in my favorite area in the world I first discovered when I was 12 years old, washington. The whole point of college for me at least is getting to pursue what you want to pursue something once again in high school I couldn't do and a generic business degree doesn't sound nearly appealing as getting to use up credits to do what I love and progress in a field I want to learn more about everyday while meeting people who I can relate to and have similar interests that I do. while i understand your perspective on an airline pilot is an aerial bus driver which airbus I suppose agrees with you on :), I look at it as a way to discover a part of the world few get to see on a daily basis while working in a professional enviornment with hard working people who have the same passion as you. While im sure a business degree is certainly a useful tool and practical to many, i'd rather spend the next four years of my life doing something I love and feel good about than something that just doesn't have the same emotional attachment and color that flying does. as for expenses, time will tell but I feel that if you love what you're doing enough and are smart about it you can get by sure sh*t will happen, but I do plan on minoring in something else like psychology or geography which both interest me and I understand it is not wise to put my eggs in one basket as freezingflyboy emphasized but I am going to set my sights on achieving my first and foremost goal and that's being an airline pilot. Once again all thanks for the replies and keep them coming regards, Chris

As much as people hate the SkyHighs and Browntails and KillBills of the world you need to listen to them. The biggest disservice you can do for yourself is ignoring the advice or opinions of people who you don't agree with. BY nature we all hear what we want to and put more weight on opinions that agree with our own but we need to listen to the others even if we don't like what we hear, you never know what gems might be contained therein. You may not like the idea of a "boring" business degree but it is VERY easy to lose your medical and then what?

Well as far as I know airlines do not give preference for what of degree you have, so his advice is good. It sort of reminds me of people wanting to be police officers getting almost useless type degrees such as criminal justice or criminology. It's best to get a degree to fall back on when they won't give preference to ANY degree you may have earned.

freezingflyboy u misunderstood me. i very much take into account skyhighs advice and i did read his post carefully before i replied. i understand the concept of a backup. its good advice and ive heard it brought up many times in the forum but i wanna major in something im interested in and thats aviation and minor in something that i can fall back on incase my dream doesnt work out and am also interested in which i mentioned was psychology or geography. i have no problem with the idea of a business degree as i posted for many people it is a useful and practical degree as I said in my earlier post but its not what I want to spend the next 4 years of my life trying to get a major in and I see no reason throwing money down the drain doing something I don't wanna pursue..and brav989 we can argue all day about employers favoring one degree over the other Im not majoring in aviation because I think it will increase my chances of getting hired by a regional, i am majoring in it because it is what I love to do and want to pursue in my future. please some of you read my previous post more carefully next time before jumping to conclusions that i ignored skyhigh's advice.regards, chris

Isnt the market for ATCs pretty hot or will be soon because of retirements? Could that be a fallback for a fallen out pilot?

Just rememeber.....chapter 7 is no longer a viable option after 10/18/05!:(

Oh yea just noticed you were talking about CWU. Where abouts are you now? I'm from the Vancouver/Portland area presently.

I agree.. I prefer to get paid less and love what i do, than getting paid more and be misserable. I have been on both sides of the coin and i prefer doing something i love.

I third that.

I am also cautious in that my soon to be completed degree is in telecommunications and i have 6 years of Satellite Communications, and Commercial switching professional military experience to fall back on.

I have thought about it long and hard because the field i am in now can bring easily upwards of 100k per year but at least at this present time i would prefer to pursue flight. I have ZERO interest whatsoever in the IT field, it just can not hold my interest or keep me happy at this present time.

The plus side is that my degree, my certifications, and my experience in my present field will not expire. I may have some catching up to do but it is not limited by a timeline so i know it is there for me if all else fails, at which time i will buy a Citabria or something of the sort and live the alternate dream.


I think SkyHigh although seen as one of the more negative posters on this site has alot of great information to share and shares it in a valuable way which can enlighten someone and help "tunnel vision" people like to see the glory but often forget the guts involved. As for BT...he occasionally chimes in with equally important information but seems more or lese to just start threads meant to antagonize and bring out the worst in others. He is a professional at rubbing people the wrong way and starts threads and post comments just to get a rise out of others. He posts to see which kinds of replies or reactions it will bring, not to actually inform or enlighten others. I will say that it is not all the time, just most of the time.

This is all in my limited two month experience on this site. Many have been here for a few years and may have seen otherwise, i am just going on what i have observed.

You sound like you have your mind already made up and don't want to hear anyone's opinion that differs from yours. You are focusing on the one area of aviation that's the most unstable, least profitable and with the lowest long term earning potential, passenger flying. You sound like the type that has to be seen strutting through the terminal in your uniform so all the kiddies can see you and ogle over the sight of an "airline" pilot. You should do good in the mighty RJ. Problem is, that will probably be the biggest thing you ever fly. There is no way the passenger side will ever return to it's glory days as you say. The regionals, kids like you and mainline management who sees that they can take advantage of you will see to that. Good luck with your "dream" and hope it doesn't become a nightmare for you. One last thing, no matter how much you may "love" flying, after awhile it does become a "job" and you will grow tired of it. You better be sure that when this does happen that you haven't paid a too high of price to get to the point that it is just a job, especially when you find yourself stuck at a regional your entire career.

Brav989,

I use to live in Vancouver when I was flying for Horizon and taught ground school at Evergreen Airpark at nights to make a little extra money. I really enjoyed my time there.

CWU1919,

The college is great MidState Aviation however is a miserable place that overcharges for everything. The instructors are like used car salesmen. The Flight Tech program is run by a bunch of academics without any real experience. As far as I know not a single one of them has ever flown for an airline and most don't have any professional flying experience at all. I would get a geology degree and fly on the side someplace else.


Times have changed. Back when I was a freshman at CWU no one would have considered aviation as a career unless it came with the promise of a healthy income. The price is so high and sacrifice so painful that everyone of us had expectations of owning a 120 acre hobby ranches and buying a new truck every other year. You guys are already bracing yourselves for a modest to impoverished life before you even start. Our dreams slid from well off to barely making a living. What do you think the future will be like for you guys if you already have as a high hope of just being to earn a simple living?

SkyHigh

Keep your eyes on the skies !!

Sky High is right on the money as usual. But then again, if you start out with low goals, then a regional career might turn out to be satisfying!

Sadly Yes
 

You may love flying but it doesnt mean that flying will love you back. In life it is important to find mutually beneficial relationships. Pilots these days seem to have a bad case of beaten wife syndrome. They are taking a savage beating and more keep on coming because they "love flying". :eek:

SkyHigh

Newbie pilots, remember those words!

Well, is it really that bad to stay with a regional for a career? Sure the pay will never be as great, you will always fly smaller aircraft and it won't be too glamourous. But is it really that bad of a choice?

Only you can answer that question. But, you have to ask youself this question. Did you get started towards an airline career with the goal of a career at the regionals? I'd say, almost none of you would say yes, but unfortunately that's where most of you will end up. So, is it worth it?

Bad Choice ??
 

I was at a graduation party at CWU recently and several new grads in construction management and accounting already had starting positions that payed 50 to 70K per year. By comparison a regional career isn't so good. It might take you ten years to break 50K per year from graduation day and pilots have the extra burden of paying for flight training. In addition, we all have witnessed that the airlines have been sliding steadily down hill and it will never go back to the way is was. I am sure there is a bottom somewhere but I wouldn't want to start an aviation career to find out.

Flying might be fun but it is no fun to be poor, overworked and lonely while your college peers in other professions are buying houses, taking vacations and building families. A lot of things in life are fun. I like XBox, but it doesnt mean I should try to make a living at it. I would consider what your other options are and perhaps pursue aviation as a hobby.

SkyHigh

Amen brother!
As you get older, having something to show for acheivement becomes more important for personal satisfaction.
Yes it is a hard road, and you are the only one who has to answer to yourself
on this subject. But the years go by... and cannot be replaced.
Regret is one of the most pitiful aspects in life, dont let yourself become a victim of it.:)

Regrets
 

Regret goes both ways. It isn't difficult to conjure up a few on this forum who regret the 1000 per month payment that they make to a dead career.

Idealism in youth can put us places later in life that we are not so happy about. As we get older money and the comforts it brings is worth a whole lot.

Skyhigh

Think a little first.

Ever since I was little I had thought about being a pilot. Never seriously looked into it until last year, but was still not 100% decided. My uncle brought it up again and I decided to look into it, and thought maybe i'd give it a shot. Though job security and everything along with the airline business still weighs on my mind. One of his college friends is a senior capt. with AWA/USair and he is supposed to set it up so I can 'pick his brain'. Just hope he gives it to me straight.

CWU, you are still young and just starting out in life. Your signature ("in for the long haul") tells me something about you. It's obvious you love flying and I say you give it a try. If you find later on that you've made a mistake, or would like to do something else, you can always change. Trust me, I know about making career changes. However, SkyHigh is correct in thinking about a back up plan at the same time. It doesn't hurt to have one, or at least be thinking about one. Many of the folks on this forum have been where you are now. Listen to them, and make up your own mind. You have your whole life ahead of you and I wish you the very best.

Like others have said, do what you think is right for you. I flew for a regional for a few years, then walked away from it. I have an aviation management degree, so I went to work in airport operations and management. HUGE mistake. I made more money, yeah, and it was more stable no doubt, but after a few years of that I went running back to flying for a living. The whole corporate/meetings/kissing the bosses ass thing/office work is not my style. Don't go into flying to get rich. Personally, I think those who place money as the top priority for a job are going to be let down in one way or another. Do what fits your personality, style, and goals. Do what you won't dread waking up to each day. Regional flying can sometimes be a tough job, and the management loves to stick it to us, but nearly everyone I personally know of in any industry goes through the same thing (unless they are the owner/ceo/high management). Good luck in what you decide.

Advice
 

Just keep in mind that senior airline guys know what it was like 15 years ago however they have little recent perspective to draw on. Some of the worst advice I have ever received came from sitting senior airline captains. The last time this guy had to look for a job was most likely in the 80's. To him flying might be great as he eyes retirement. He sounds well insulated from layoffs and is probably making a good wage. Better to ask the guys a few hundred seniority numbers below and the ones who are out there struggling. I am sure that they would have a different opinion.

SkyHigh

So what happens when there are a lot of retirements? The furloughee's take the places and the guys who have tried to get a job at a major continue to try?

Retirements
 

The promise of a pilot shortage has been around for a long, long time now. People will retire and new pilots will be hired to replace them. I am sure that if you wanted a job at a major that you will have a better chance of getting there than my generation did. The big issue is what will the future be like for pilots? It might be easier to get a flying job at the majors in the future because no one will want them anymore.

SKyHigh

I remember you saying you tried to get on with Alaska but couldn't for some reason(s). If you were given the call to start as an FO, would you take the position still?

Alaska Airlines
 

I don't know if I would stick it out for the long haul but if Alaska Airlines were to call I would be there in a heartbeat.

SKyHigh

vagabond and nightflier thanks for your kind and wise words those are the kind of posts i have been looking for. skyhigh and cynical you both have your valid points and arguments and there is some truth to them, but it's from a very one sided point of view. skyhigh you talked about how the program is going to throw your money away and the people at midstate aren't the greatest at getting you through the program quickly and have little experience in the airlines. all i can say is that some new people are heading up the program times are changing since you have been there, there are students who i've emailed who love the program and don't feel that they've been cheated by midstate. while i will certainly take your words into consideration and be careful with them, i don't feel that the experience of one individual is enough for me to get a degree in something else and essentially cancel out all of the reasons I am going to CWU in the first place. construction management and accounting is the same way I feel about a business degree, ok you make money, but its something I dont have the patience skill or zest to enter into. CWU appealed to me because it is cheaper than most schools taking into account tuition and non flying costs, only 4 year university in the pac nw with a flight program, have close contacts with horizon and the possibility of getting an interview with them, and a relaxed college atmosphere with the ideal amount of students where I can pursue what I want and meet people who are interested in what I am doing. cynical i laugh at your stereotype i know of no regional pilot making 20-30k a year flying right seat in a dash 8 or rj to brag to kiddies that he is an airline pilot you know nothing about me besides what I have said on this forum and i have more class and respect than to have an arrogance and ego like that. i do have higher ambitions than ending my life at a regional i really do and that doesnt just mean moving up to a majors im interested in other facets of aviation and life but to me for the time being i feel that from analyzing my current situation a regional is the most achievable means for me and so im going to shoot for it if I dont make it I'll have another backup and a high school diploma and college degree where I can hopefully find some other form of work im somewhat interested in and that has pay i can live ok on. once again everyone thanks for your posts.

CWU1919, you are young with very little experience and I can appreciate that, we were all there once. I followed a very similar path to yours (GO SIOUX:D ). I even went into IT for a while and after 2 years realized I hated it even though I had the potential to step up to $70k if I had stuck around just a little longer. However, what bothers me is that there are certain statements that you continue to make which show me that you need to pull the blinders off.

If anyone looks long enough they will find someone who will tell them what they want to hear. Personally, I have had a positive experience with aviation, as have many others. But I have a supportive group of family and friends and I work for one of the better regionals. Your experience will vary as it has for people like Skyhigh and Cynical. Whos to say you are gonna get lucky and be in the right place at the right time with the right airline and the right people? And whos to say that even when all those stars align, that they will stay that way for you? People like Skyhigh and Cynical don't have a one sided point of view, they have THEIR point of view which is from THEIR EXPERIENCE. So their experience wasn't the rosy picture you are expecting, aviation is a mistress that treats us all differently and she doesn't give a damn if she treats you well or if she smacks the snot out of you. And she has no qualms about turning on you in an instant.

There are students at any program who love everything about it and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread (usually the ones not paying for it). And I bet all the jaded Riddle kids on the forum would love to chime in about this. I have met a lot of people who went to Riddle (and other aviation programs) and now regret it. Aviation colleges will blow as much smoke up your a$$ as it takes to get your money. I bet there are a lot of aviation grads who still fart thick black clouds of it. I understand your feelings about getting a degree outside of aviation but how hard is it going to be for you to pay for a mortgage, kids, car payments, student loans, etc on the meager loss of license payments you may or may not get from your insurance (assuming you even get such coverage from your airline/company)? Remember, all it takes is a car accident or a head injury and then you are out on your ear (meaning loss of medical). I have heard some scary stories about how easy it is for that medical to slip from your fingers. And as great as it is to go to school with people who are into the same stuff as you, it does get boring. Propheads get pretty annoying to be around after a while when they just sit around jerking each other off about airplanes and flying. College should be about diversifying your experiences, not hanging out with a bunch of guys who all do the same things, wear the same clothes and tell the same stories. And as far as CWU having "close contacts" with Horizon, do you know of any people hired into Horizon from CWU? Do you know if they actually got help from CWU or did they just happen to go to CWU and then get an interview with Horizon? A lot of aviation programs have "close contacts" with airlines and will promise interviews but take that with a grain of salt. Besides, regional interviews are a dime a dozen. I was offered 4 when I started applying and i only had 7 apps out.

How many regional pilots do you know? I have known guys who were more in love with the uniform than anything else. Even going so far as to wear it to a Halloween party:rolleyes: Some guys do it to tell girls they are "airline pilots". Some do it because they think its cool to fly a jet. Everyone has different motivations.

Thats good that you aren't arrogant or full of ego. I gurantee you the first time you come off as a cocky sh!t there will be a grey-haired captain ready to bust your chops. Believe me, its funny to watch. As far as having higher ambitions than the regionals, so do a lot of guys. I don't think anyone thinks about getting into the airline biz and says "mommy, one day i want to fly 50 people around the midwest in a shiny little jet!" Thats good that you have ambition and other interests besides aviation but then you keep limiting yourself to aviation by going to an aviation program to get an aviation degree. Why not explore and develop those other interests of yours? Know what my biggest regret about college was? That all I got was an aviation degree. Im just really happy that I didn't spend all of my time with aviation people doing aviation things or else I really would have missed out...

Hope my rambling helps just a little gleam of light emerge.

freezingflyboy i mean ur a cool guy u have experience and its nice to hear from someone who has firsthand experience. the point of the thread was for people to give me some positive outlooks on working for the regionals, its not like im naive to the negative aspects ive been reading about them and people have been telling me them for years. the whole point was for people to help shine some light on the good aspects the points u brang up are points ive heard in this forum ive heard countless times. while i take them into consideration and realize that something could go wrong that im young and inexperienced and could fail im willing to take a risk. im sorry that u know regional pilots who think that way it sounds like there in it for the wrong reasons. i dont think getting an aviation degree and minoring in something else is limiting me thats just my opinion. im going to take other classes in other things and try and do an assortment of different things in my life and not just limit myself to flying "an aerial shuttle". like i said ive read alot about the negatives and while i take them into account and realize what Im going into is certainly a risk and that i may be young and experienced im confident in my abilities. your argument about ur medical and car accidents and financial stuff screwing me over...ok man fine **** happens im not gonna sit here and dwell on what could happen i wanna go out and pursue my dream thanks for the advice man nothing anyone has told me has intimidated me enough to stop doing it sure i will take the negatives with a grain of salt but my drive at this point in the game is too high to just give it up because of what one or two people say.

As a fellow Wildcat grad I agree with Skyhigh and the others.

Continue to fly if thats what you love. We all are doing that. But have a plan if you lose yoru medical, or have some other unfortunate situation that causes you to no longer fly. I always wanted to fly, but took the advice of those around me at the time and got a degree in PR/Marketing. This helped me with a "real" job while instructing- and in 2001 when I was furloughed from a major (along with everyone else) it allowed me to get a well-paying job and kept my life together.

I am back in the cockpit now- and love it, but don't know what I would have done for those 3 years without a fallback plan. Aviation is fickle- she will be there on your best and happiest days, and she will break your heart! Its how you let it affect you that will determine your sanity.

CWU1919, no one is trying to talk you out of an aviation career or scare you away. All any of us have said is just have a back up plan and think about options. Youre right, sh!t happens and when you get out in to the real world you will realize just how much sh!t does happen. The people who make it through that sh!t are the ones who have a Plan B. Its true of flying and of life. Never get into an airplane unless you have a Plan B and never get into a career unless you have a Plan B. Just like Widgeon said, it will keep your life together. A lot of guys live beyond their means and all it takes is one hickup with no back up plan and they are sunk. This is true of any field, not just aviation. Example, as interest rates rise and construction slows down all these guys thinking they are living easy working construction are going to start to feel the pinch.