Pinchanickled

Many of our "recalled" union leaders are claiming with the utmost confidence that if we have a trip and duty rig and/or a min day....that our quality of life would be (gasp) - destroyed!!!

Again these are the same guys that said 10 days off for reserves and 11 days off for line holders would be a good fair deal(thus causing our TA to get voted down).

Seems to me that these items are essential and industry standard.

Can anyone from another airline who currently operates with a trip and duty rig, or a min day, chime in and tell us what it can do for your quality of life?

dojetdriver

There are way to many factors for somebody on the outside to be able to asses the overall QOL impact it would have on your specific operation.

And yep, I'd be all for it. With the new rest/duty times coming down the pipe, it's going to become even more important to push for them.

But just taking one example of what they may be talking about;

4 day/commutable/late show/early release trip. Day 1 might be 3 hrs credit, days 2-3 might be 7-8 hours credit each, day 4 being 3 hours. Standard 4 day worth 20-22 hours credit.

The potential pitfall is this, if they push for 5 hours a day, management is going to make sure they get 5 hours (or more) of flying out of you, especially on day 1 and day 4. This has the potential to destroy commutable trips. Earlier show/more flying on day 1/later release more flying on day 4 to spread it out. Also, to balance it out, they could make the middle day of the pairing less productive to the keep the trip credit down. But instead of just making longer overnights, they're just going to schedule MORE sit time with LESS flying just to balance it out.

If I remember correctly, when AWAC got their big fat contract they had to give back shortly after 9/11, they negotiated trip/duty rigs, but they only applied to the middle days of multi day pairings, not the first/last day.

Now, the typical knee jerk answer is that trip/duty rigs "will force the airline to schedule more productive/efficient trips". At the major/legacy/LCC level, that can be the case. At the "regional"/subcontracted/CPA/FPD level, that is usually NOT the case. The problem is, the customer (the major/legacy you feed for) dictates the schedule down to the "regional" level.

The net result is that it causes pilot costs to go up significantly with no increase in pilot productivity, OR pilot QOL to go down, or BOTH.

As I said, yep, I'm all for it, but that's the reality of being at the "regional" level vs. the major/legacy.

Flyby1206

Would trip/duty rigs and min value days put more pressure on the company to schedule you for more flying per day? Start 6am on day 1 finish 10pm on day 4. Hope you arent a commuter!

ToiletDuck

Think twice about cheering for these new congressional proposals too.

dojetdriver

Absolutely, especially at the regional level, hence this part;

ANd something else to think about, if the result is what you stated above, guess what a potential pitfall is? Required staffing goes DOWN, IE, less pilots required.

atlmsl

A min day credit is nice for obvious reasons. I can't even begin to tell you how much of my pay this year was a result of a min day credit. However there is some argument here (ASA) that our min day credit and duty rigs force the company to make crappy trips. About 80% of our lines are 4 day trips while the company has reduced the amount of standups because of the duty rig. Some argue that without the rig there would be more standups and therefore a better selection of trips to bid from instead of all 4 days. The argument kind of makes sense. The company's goal each month is to minimize these credits since it's free money. If they build the trip right then we don't see any min day/duty rig credit. The problem might be that a long 4 day trip is the way to avoid these credits.

atlmsl

This happens quite often at ASA (atleast to me). Just last week I had a show time of 7am day 1 and a release of 8pm day 4. Four FULL days in order to not get any free credit on day 4. Lovely.

higney85

While I want to stay out of the politics on a public board, I will say that the min day and rigs are more PROTECTIONS than true "money makers". We don't know what is coming down the pipe with duty and flight time changes (as in the final and official rules) but we need to all be sure that we cover ourselves in every way, shape, and form. While pairings may change due to a contract (on the company's behalf), the changes from marketing and FAR compliance need to be looked at to make sure we are paid when we are at work. Sure, ASA and others may have trips that start early and end late- how many of those trips are long duty days? 9E already utilizes the long days and max legs. We (9E) are the most productive and efficient RJ operator IN THE WORLD. A min day makes sure you are paid when you show up at work, a duty rig pays you when you have a long sit (sit out a push), and a trip rig pays us when the company elects to have us in a hotel for long periods of time. I'm sure every pilot has different thoughts and views about min days and rigs but the thought that these rigs will HURT us going forward is one I can't wrap my head around. The company always works to maintain skeleton staffing and productivity while minimizing hotel and perdiem costs- the thought that everyone will get 4 hours of credit a day by simply flying 4 hours would cost a TON in terms of higher crew requirements (staffing), more hotel costs, and more perdiem. The company wants us to work the max and be off their dole, we want to work the max and have the most time at home. This thought won't change regardless, but the pilot's pushing to protect OUR side of compensation is what is in discussion in this thread and on the company board (where the OP started from). If you have concerns or questions- call or email your reps.

dojetdriver

Some of this is general questions for you, some of this is just for clarification and comparison sake. So please be patient;

Not sure about EV, but at my company, some of the 4 days are just that, with long duty days. Typically 12 hours, and naturally with one long overnight somewhere in the middle to flip the times. In other words, first two days early show, evening finish, day 3-4 late morning show late evening finish. Now, some of that has simply to do with one of our domiciles and the rampant delays so that there is always fresh/legal crews showing up early to absorb the delays that may have occurred the say prior. With a pay credit of the standard 20-22 hours. Some pay more, but not all. But spending 80 TAFB for that low of credit is just asinine.

When you say that, do you mean 9E gets the most utilization out of the airframes with max block/legs per day, or max crew utilization, or BOTH? If the answer is both, that begs the question of how much sit time can there be on a typical multi day pairing?

True, and they'd all be nice to have. But on the perdiem front on a 4 day pairing, middle days are the same whether the crew sits at the airport or sits at the hotel. Only days 1 and 4 toss in the higher perdiem cost. But yes, if you have shorter, more crew efficient days, that results in MORE crews in the hotels, driving the cost up.

Not sure if 9E's MEC is using the logic I outlined in a previous post. But the 2 or 3 times I've been through a negotiation, that was the reasoning. Out of 2 separate MEC's and 3 different regimes, it was the same. I'm not a koolaid drinker, but from my friends that are/were on the scheduling committees said, I'm inclined to believe them.

And naturally, that can take the discussion into a whole different topic that I have NO desire of engaging in. You know, will it be good for ALL pilots, will it affect ALL pilots, is it just he senior pilots looking out for themselves, etc.

higney85

We have some 4-day trips that credit less with the same obstacles.

Crew utilization. A 2-day trip is typically 3-5 legs, a reduced rest overnight, and 3-5 more legs. A 3 day is typically 3-5 legs, reduced rest (or min normal), 2-6 legs, comp or long overnight, and 3-5 legs. A 4-day is a multitude of combos but typically days 1/4 are loaded up and 2 and 3 are either equally weighted or 1 is loaded with the other having an "easy" day with a long layover. Most I have seen in memphis are 5/4/4/5 legs worth 18-28 hours. Obviously there are some that are 3/2/4/3 that aren't worth much. This doesn't represent all of our trips but it should give you an idea. As a disclaimer I am memphis based and haven't truly "studied" every base's trips.



The issue is having more crewmembers "at work" to accomplish the same block hours of flying. I'm not quite following your "more efficient= more hotels". If pilot's are efficient they hit their credit (whether it's block or simply credit) quicker and are released and off the dole for hotel and perdiem costs. The block hours for the airframes aren't what is the direct discussion, it's the amount of pilots required to do it, and the amount of days those pilots take to get it done. We have guys who have 18 days off and fly 75 hours (block), we also have guys who fly 75 hours and WORK 20 days to get it. Currently for january (according to the bid pack) the average block per duty period is over 5 hours in every base. As a reference in July 09 it was over 5:28 in every base. I would be interested to see what others have.

I remember the reaction I got from your FO rep (I think you are with ASA) when I showed him one of my summer schedules where I had 10 leg 2-days worth 15 hours- with 15:20 block, 4 day trips worth 28 hours with over 28 hours of block. First reaction was "holy cow, how do you fly so much", followed by "hey, why do you fly more then you get paid for"? I have also had 4 day trips worth less than 15 hours- with lots of sits in DTW so it's not all rosy. Currently at 9E you will fly 75 hours to make 75 hours of pay unless you are on reserve (which can be flying far more than 75 hours or sitting ALOT of days on airport reserve) or a highspeeder that will still only get 10-12 days off depending on the month. For a lineholder to make 75 CURRENTLY, that pilot will typically be flying 75+ hours of block. If you are not in the top 1/3rd it's not especially rosy, ask anybody what happened to schedules in January- lots of folks are down to the 10 day off minimum that used to have 12-16 days off. I think that's where all this started on the company board.

I hope I answered your questions.