So...You Want To Be An Ailrline Pilot....
 

First of all...good for you. I wish you the best of good fortune.

Sometimes good fortune smiles upon those whom are best prepared.

I'm a sim instructor/check airman on the Embraer 170/190. If you were to enter our program, you might get me as your sim instructor...or you might take your oral or your type rating /PC with me.

I bet you might have some questions or things to talk about. That's why I'm starting this topic...to clear the air a little on what lies ahead for you.

So fire away!!

Shack,

Welcome to the forum!! You're knowledge will certainly come to use to many of us.

First question, in your opinion, what do you feel needs to be worked on by those who have trouble at your ground school?

Let's begin by describing the 'program'.

Once you have been hired, you start the academic ground school. Upon completion, you go to the sim, and after that to the line where you will complete your final checks.

The Embraer 170/190 is a modern FBW, 'glass' jet with the feel of the 'big iron'. You might think of it as a mini-late model 737 in many respects.

There are many challenges in our program...everything from experience with a two man crew to multiengine aircraft to swept wing jet aircraft to airline operations. Each has its own unique challenges...and these challenges should not be minimized. You will do so at your peril. The EMB-170 is very much the 'big leagues'. I was a line instructor/check airman for a legacy carrier before my retirement at age 60. We teach our program at the legacy carrier level.

Hours do not mean much. Nor does the type of aircraft you may have flown. We have found that attitude and willingness to apply oneself are the keys to success. I can teach you how to fly a 170...I can't teach you how to be a good student. Attitude is 90% of the battle...but you must have the basic skills.

Some have come to our program without these skills. Some have learned quickly and made it through. Others have not. Our program is not pilot training...it is essentially an upgrade program to a new jet. Those that see this as a chance to learn something new are likely to find themselves way behind the power curve...both literally and figuratively.

That's the basics...now for your specifics...!!

I've got a long way to go. In a part 61 program north of Columbia, SC. Will finish up my PPL within the next couple of months, then move onto a part 141 program SW of Atlanta out of KFFC. I've got a while go. :)

Yes, you do...a long way to go, let's be certain about that.

But we ALL started out at the newbie level. Nobody in this business woke up on third base and thought they hit a triple. Some did...and they learned very quickly the error of their ways.

If you want it badly enough, it will happen. That's all the encouragement that I will pass along. Not everyone gets to do this...nor should they. The Bill of Rights doesn't apply!!

Your career isn't about 'paying dues'. That's crap. It's about experience and the ability to learn. Some learn faster than others. Some never learn at all. Do not confuse accumulation with experience...that can be fatal.

The golden ring is there for those who can reach for it. Good luck!!

Thank you for the great info, Shack!! :)

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge!

What is the most common mistake you see? That is, what causes the most busted checkrides?

Good question. Fortunately, we have a relatively low bust rate on type rating and PC checks, and our oral failure rate is even lower still. Rather than look at what was done wrong, let's look at the most challenging aspects of the program.

First...who is being challenged? We get a wide range of experience in the folks we work with...some come from previous airline jobs, and some do not. Some have left seat time, some do not. Some have jet time, others do not. A few have FMS , FBW, and 'glass' experience, but most do not.

The first hurdle to cross is our program standardization. We are very standardized, and out client companies insist we be since that is their way of doing things 'on the line'. Not everyone comes from a background of standardization...for some, this is a bitter pill to swallow. Let's just say that we have zero patience for anyone not willing to toe the line on this issue.

Next...previous airline experience. This shows up in a number of ways...experience in a two-man cockpit (some have no previous time in such an environment), an understanding of CRM and how it is employed on a typical 'flight', experience in typical airline operations...scheduled operations, time constraints, flight plan documentation, radio calls and terminology, etc.

Left seat time. Some folks come with previous Captain time, others are training for their first left seat rating (they may or may not have an ATP). Some think that the issue is one of learning how to fly with one's left hand...nothing could be further from the truth. We do train Captains...I'm doing upgrade training next week...it will be a challenge. Too often the folks being trained think all they have to do is fly an ILS from the left side of the cockpit. They don't have the time or experience to appreciate the 'command' aspects of being in that seat...not everyone should be a Captain or can be. We have had folks fail this aspect of the program.

Jet time...particularly swept wing jet time. The 170/190 flys like the 'big iron'...our stick and rudder techniques are identical to those used in any of the larger aircraft. Some folks come to us with minimal experience...meaning single engine prop time. They find the Embraer to be a whole new ball game. To date, we have had three people fail to reach the checkride simply because they could not fly the plane. Probably the area that presents the most problems is engine out flight.

FMS, FBW, autoflight, and 'glass'. This has been probably the major hurdle. Learning the jet in the limited number of training periods (8) is a challenge all by itself. Throw in FMS, FBW, autoflight, and 'glass' and sometimes the problem becomes too much to deal with in the time allotted. FMS is a tough nut to crack for some, and that system is absolutely integral in today's new jets.

That's the 'bad' news! The 'good' news is that most are trainable. We do allot extra training time when needed. Our checking program is very operational...we are well noted for a complete absence of BS in our program. Our job is to get you to IOE, not bust you. If you do your part, we'll do ours and there will likely be a happy ending.

Attitude is everything. Come prepared out of ground academics and come with a willingness to listen and learn and chances are real good for success.

In your opinion, who is more trainable- the new guy with not a lot of hours, or a recent transfer from another regional? There's a lot of trash talk about low timers getting jobs with regionals on this board, and I was curious if they really are as competent as higher time pilots?

By the way, great thread! Probably the most informative one in this section of APC in a very long time! :)

Thank you for such an informative response. It is especially timely for me as I start the 170 sim tomorrow!

Please elaborate on this. There are those that think regionals, people with lower TT, and pilots willing to take low pay to fly are the death of aviation. There must me a reason RJ hire the people they do.

It will be no surprise that someone with recent experience in a regional jet will be better positioned to adapt to the 170 than someone without that background. For example, quite a few of our folks come from the EMB-145...both right and left seat. These folks have filled most of the learning squares already...the 170 has a slightly different FMS, a more advanced autoflight system (primarily autothrottles), and a different flight control 'feel'. These folks generally have few problems in our program. For them, the experience is one of 'adaptation'...taking what they already know and doing it in a slightly different way.

The 'new guy with not a lot of hours' is something else entirely. This person is typically a FO with a prop background (piston or turbine) from a smaller regional or sometimes corporate outfit. Or this person may be even less experienced...and have light twin or single engine time in a non-airline environment (night freight, for example). For all of these people, the demands of our program are elevated, especially for those coming from a non-airline background.

But these folks too are 'trainable', but obviously they may start off slower than someone with more experience (the 145 person). If this person has the basic skills, it's not unusual for them to have caught up with the more experienced person towards the end of the program. Our program is a 'firehose' training experience...some can handle this level of intensity and some cannot. Most have proven they can.

There is no doubt that low experienced people are getting hired into regionals. They are coming to our program. It's not my place to pass judgment on this...it's mostly a function of supply and demand. My job is to teach you, not be judgmental about your background. If you can jump through the hoops, you will pass. If not, then you are out of luck.

Competency is a difficult thing to define. My idea may be different than yours. One thing is certain. Age and experience is something that can only be gotten one way...living long enough. Competency involves one heck of a lot more than just flying an ILS. Our airline operations are so 'canned' today that the importance of individual competence has been marginalized by the structured operational environment. Usually things go according to plan...in this case, a person's background is relatively unchallenged.

It's when 'stuff happens' that the issue of competency arises. Simply put, someone who has been there before is far more likely to find a way out of a problem than someone who has not. This experience is only gained the old fashioned way. Sometimes this becomes an ego problem, particularly with young folks. I have no sympathy for these people. This is a demanding business, and hurt feelings or bruised egos are often part and parcel of the training and learning experience. Those who can accept this are much easier to teach and are far more successful at learning.

Yes...I've seen 'trash talk' here. That's exactly what it is...trash. I have had the pleasure of working with some extremely talented young and inexperienced people in the 170 program. I am as proud of their accomplishments as they. The fact of the matter is that these folks can do the job. But not all of them. In a former life, I was a USAF Fighter Weapons School instructor...not everyone that came through our program was all that 'competent'...not to mix apples and oranges, but 'competency' is relative. Some get it, some don't.

All I meant to say was that attitude trumps experience in a training environment.

Those with a desire to learn who apply themselves are not necessarily held back by thin logbooks. I don't know how to say this more clearly...attitude is everything. Most of the time. In rare cases, attitude by itself is not enough. In those cases, the person is not qualified for the 170 (left or right seat) and must find employment elsewhere.

Regional companies hire those who apply. These days, that seems to be relatively low time or experience pilots. That's apparently the nature of the business right now. My guess is that 100 seaters are redefining the airline business. If that becomes the case, then so be it. All I can say is either get on the train or get off...it's leaving the station whether someone is on it or not.

If you are training in CLT, I'll probably see you! Bring money...I like red beer!!

:)

Is the E170/175/190/195 more difficult to train on than say the E145/CRJ? You've mentioned a couple of times that it has the "big iron" feel and that sometimes causes problems for people, so I was curious.

I've not checked out on the 145 so I can't speak too much about that jet. The 170 avionics is marginally more complicated than the avionics in the smaller Embraer...FMS more advanced, autothrottles, engine out characteristics perhaps more pronounced due to the engine location.

A small percentage of our students have had a difficult time adapting to the 'jet' feel...these typically are pilots with no jet time. They seem to have problems adjusting to the higher speeds, climb rates, etc. For example, one person who failed to finish the program came from light twins (Seneca)...he just never caught up to the airplane...from the takeoff on, he was behind and couldn't get up to speed (literally and figuratively) in the alloted training time.

"big iron" feel with small iron pay

Maybe I've spent to much time at flightinfo.com, however, this whole thread smells a bit like flame. The "big iron" jet is an RJ. Just because it's engines are on the wing dosen't mean anything. It's a Regional jet flown by a regional airline (CHQ) for regional pay. I've also heard that CHQ guys get pi$$ed when other pilots or ATC calls it a RJ. It's not a RJ it's a mini 737, the engines are on the wings!!!!

How "competent" must one be to push a button and twist a knob. Save your hogwash for another forum.

Spend your time anywhere you want, but this thread is about answering questions about getting started in RJ training (specifically, the Embraer 170/190).

There was a question about differences in 'feel'. The asymmetrical yaw issue in the EMB-170 tends to be more pronounced due to its engine location and swept wing design.

CHQ no longer flys the 170.

Given the problems that folks have when training on the 170, quite a bit. The flight guidance panel can often be confusing and difficult to use. A fair amount of our training involves both traditional 'hand flying' and 'button pushing' at the same time...throw in company standards about who does what and when, and it gets tricky at times.

As that old TV commercial used to say, "It's not your father's Oldsmobile!".

The first couple of rides in our syllabus tend to be quite a 'reality check' for some. At the end of those two periods, most understand that this program is not going to be the cake walk that they had imagined.

I am surprised to hear that. I mean p/b/d is not a difficult concept. That really amazes me that peops are having trouble. Not enough studying or prep perhaps?

Maybe inexperience.

Good thread - Thanks Shack for sharing your insights...I now understand why my last CFI had been at it for 6 years. I don't think he had it in him to take that next step and leave his comfort zone behind...Its a shame really - looking back anything out of the ordinary and he would start to freak out and take control...I was more relaxed and learned more on my solo flights in the KSAC , yolo county, and sac international areas.


-LAFF

WHat does pay have to do with this thread.

This is a great thread. Please dont ruin it by starting into the whole pay thing.This is about operations and nothing else.Keep up the good thread, and ignore the negativity

Anytime now Skyhigh will show up and give his 2 cents worth on line flying and 121 training...One thing is certain - it will be entertaining...

-LAFF

If you mean 'point/bearing/distance' as a concept, I agree. But that concept is about 1% of using the FMS.

Most FMS difficulties come from lack of experience.

My background was flying navajos and metros, no automation what so ever and it took me about 1 hour in the sim to learn most of what I needed to know(aboutthe fms). These guys probably aren't apllying themselves. :eek:

Sorry, I just had to say this
 

That was my thought exactly when this all first started. Now,Im gonna shut up and let the people who need this info get it.

This tells me two things.

You either have the steepest learning curve known to aviation...or somebody wasn't asking too much of you.

No disrespect intended, but the idea that the FMS can be learned to the degree that we require of both CAs and FOs in one hour is unrealistic.

Our trainees do apply themselves in 99% of the cases. While there is (and has been) that 1% that can't master the system, most folks do, but it takes considerable work for most. To imply that these folks aren't applying themselves is an insult.

C175, I'm sure it will take way more than one hour to learn what you can do with the FMS and use it all of its features to your benifit in real world flying.

There's a difference in learning what you need to know, and mastering the FMS. At CAE we didn't spend much time in the sim on the FMS... did the usual initialization, and normal usage... but that's it. And that will get you by. But you'd be really amazed at what the Collins 4200 can do once you really sit down with a CBT and spend a few days playing with it. It's really an amazing unit.

...What you need to know is sufficient. Do the rest on your own.

Tell me, show me, let me - correct me....That's the learning philosophy I prefer. The extras are FYI and good to know but at a later time...


-LAFF

What do I need to know about labor/management relations as an airline pilot?

:rolleyes:

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ROTFLMAS
Have you READ any of the forum yet?

Very true indeed... but my instructor at CAE had a different mentality. He was more like "Hit the CBT, learn it there, know it by the time you're in the box... if you screw up or have questions, my cube is down the hall". Which worked fine for me. Sat down with the manual and the computer, and figured it all out. I guess that's when I developed a disease called curiosity, and started discovering all the crazy stuff you can do with this thing. I was glad I did it, because on checkride day... err, night, it was like midnight... they did make life a whole lot easier and really impressed the examiner.

Only this.

The more time you spend worrying about this, the less time you'll have to devote to flying the jet...and the more disgruntled and unhappy you will likely be.