New Hires: Work rules and "Quick Upgrades"
 

Howdy all,

There are some regionals that have started hiring. So how does one choose where to go?

Eagle has decent work rules and pay, but historically the upgrade time was forever. (only used as an example, no editorial on the company)

A couple years ago, a new hire to a place like Colgan could expect "industry average" pay (meaning close to average hourly rate, but poor pay rules). Some folks bit the bullet and took the pay hit in hopes of getting a quick upgrade and moving on. Some of them did well, and some moved on only to get furloughed at their new company. And others of us were stuck languishing in a less than perfect company.

Now, with a zilllion folks on furlough and a sluggish economy, upgrades, even at the historically quick places, are few and far between.

So what is the "high time" instructor or 135 guy to do?

Consider the next job a marriage. If things change, maybe you will only be with a new company 5-10 years, or maybe you will be there the rest of your working days. Either way, you should expect to be there a LOOONG time. So choose your next employer based on how well the company fits your life.

Eagle, Express Jet, Colgan, or Cape Air all have pluses and minuses. Weigh each one, just like a prospective mate, and make your decision. But don't let equipment or "fast upgrade" carry too much weight. Nor should you put much stock in the promises made during an interview (just ask military folks about recruiter promises). This is a JOB. One that you may be stuck with for a long time.

Good luck.
J

Disclaimer: I work for Colgan, live in base, don't need total flight time, and have found a niche (schedule and base that work for me). Your millage WILL vary!

Good Post JSH. I'm with you 100%. I don't need the hours or PIC, just a good company to hang my hat. One thing the youngins' and new hires must be willing to do: "put up with a great amount of BS". The regionals get it from both ends. Management wants the lowest wages possible and our mainline customers want to keep us unstable enough where we don't venture out on our own to become another competitor or take money from their profits.

Also, you and your coworkers have got to keep a positive attitude. Negativeness is contagious and when people start *****ing, it tends to spread. You've got to make the best of a less then perfect industry.

Being home based is definitely the way to go if you can do it. The high cost of living cities is where it's hard for new hires unless you have family to crash with. Like JSH said, don't plan on leaving for quite a while.

That's somewhat of misinformation put out by the great management team over at Pinnacle/Colgan.

They have never even been close to industry average pay. They have always been industry low pay.

For those folks that thought they would get a quick upgrade. They are now stuck somewhere with terrible work rules and pay or their company is in bankruptcy.

Wait for a place that you can at least bare if you were to get stuck there.

anyone who goes to any so-called lower tier/shady regional for the sole purpose of chasing quick upgrade at all costs has ZERO right to complain when the stuff hits the fan when the industry stagnates.

Amen Brother. Mooney is spot on. You are using them for a quick time builder and upgrade to get your hours and PIC, and they are using you at low wages to fill a seat that a 1000 other newbies would love to fill. How about you forgo flying for the commuters, go pay for all the experience you need for the majors, and then put in your apps with them. Sorry my friend, this is reality. It stinks.:(

The trick to a pyramid scheme is to get in early and get out before it collapses.

Get in too late and you're stuck. Sucks to be you.

Get out too late and you're in the unemployment line. Sucks to be you.

I guess the other trick is to figure out which airlines are a Pyramid scheme?

Not just using the company, they are using the other pilots in the industry that have held out for higher wages and choose to work for better companies that attempt to raise the bar just so they could chase the fabled dream of working for a major. My advice... look at where the industry has grown over the last 10 years, we will all be at regionals longer than we think.

If someone is hiring = plenty of applicants will show up.

Doesn't matter what the conditions are. Don't forget the rat race that this profession is.

Aren't they all? They lock you in with a seniority list, and you have almost no way of really knowing whether the company will expand or contract or any knowledge of a time frame in which that will happen. The only difference between them is whether or not you get burned.

I agree, do not go somewhere with poor wages/work rules just for the hope of a quick upgrade. That quick upgrade will most likely not materialize, and you'll be stuck working for a stagnant (or bankrupt) employer with awful QOL. As it turns out, it really is worth it to wait for someplace that will treat you with at least some respect.

As the poster above me said, that is why you go to a regional that you could live with for a long time if things slow down to a crawl. I would really hate being at a place with terrible work rules for 1+ years, but that is where a lot of those pilots find themselves right now when the industry slowed down. No sympathy from us.

My friend is a retired NWA Captain. He told a story from his B727 FO days; Two flights used to leave MSP in the afternoon bound for SEA. Each made several stops along parallel tracks in places like Fargo, Pierre, Missoula, Butte. Each made the same number of stops. The crews would race to SEA because the losing crew had to buy in the hotel bar. They would make 15 minute turns at uncontrolled airports, help throw bags, anything to speed their way along.

Hearing this story led me to think about something; In those days a CA made over $400,000, FO - $200,000, FE - $130,000 in 2010 dollars, and this is a conservative estimate. Today this flying is done in RJ's by Mesaba or someone and the CA and FO together probably don't clear $100,000. They work more days each month for much less real pay.

Our profession is harmed by pilots who get too comfy at their "good regional." A pilot who chooses to go to Mesa, Colgan, (insert "bottom-feeding", "profession-killing" regional here) because he or she wants to get to the majors and has no intention of putting down roots at any regional is trying to be part of the rising tide lifting all boats. Pilots who choose Skywest, ExpressJet, (insert "kind", "wholesome", "pilot-loving" regional here) and then stay there because the droppings from the lord's table are just good enough, are those who drag us down. The concept of a career regional must be squashed.

Is that the best you could come up with to rationalize your decision to work for, as you put it, a "'bottom-feeding', 'profession-killing' regional?"

I love your rationalization. I'm still laughing as I type this.

Don't you just love these guys?

Yeah, you know...I like to use these forums to keep my ear to the streets but there is way too much self righteous crap being typed by people who probably wouldn't embarrass themselves by speaking such verbal diarrhea to other crewmembers they don't know in the airport or a hotel shuttle!

You're joking right? April fools?
Several times on the first day of class at my airline the CEO, DO or other higher power has walked into class and said "We DO NOT want you here in 3 years. You are a liability to us if you stay longer than 3 years. We want you to upgrade as soon as you hit mins, get 1000 tpic and get the heck out." Regionals HATE 4 year plus payscale captains.

So a CA who spends 20 years at "good" regional is hurting the industry more than someone who is willing to work for 14 buck and hour for 4 years at a "bad regional?" :confused::confused:

Dude, you are too funny, but well said and true. You must have helped write the "Pulp Fiction" script.

One of my first days at Colgan the instructor said they wanted a good 2 years out of us and that is what they expected more or less.

I've always wanted more details about the below:
1993
Comair changed the U.S. airline industry forever in June when it became the Western Hemisphere launch customer for the 50-passenger Canadair Regional Jet. By 1993, Comair had grown to serve more than 68 locations in 23 states and three countries, employing more than 2,200 aviation professionals.


I have often heard that one can point the finger at Delta for not wanting to fly the first regional jets. They could have stopped what we have now in it's tracks back in the early 90's. Hindsight is always 20/20, but I have never been able to find any hard facts about how the above actually went down. Any thoughts?

My understanding is that Delta Apla agreed to let CRJ flying be done by outsourced regional airlines in exchange for better payscales at mainline.

Well, let's see. 7+ years ago, I went to a regional with top-of-the-industry pay rates and phenomenal growth. Advanced rapidly but not enough to upgrade until 5.5 years. Downgraded after 7 months, 300 hours PIC. After 300+ furloughs and the loss of 40% of our fleet, I'm senior to 25% of our remaining pilots.

Yay?

Of course, had I gone to a lower-tier regional and upgraded quickly, I could be furloughed from a major by now...

I put those phrases in quotes to indicate sarcasm, but apparently that was lost on you. Are quotation marks hard to see when you are looking down your nose at fellow pilots?

I do not need to rationalize my decision. I had a blast and would make the same decision again.

Thank you, my Friend.

Things suck when airlines are shrinking. To be fair, there is no such thing as "top-of-the-industry pay rates" at any regional airline. The top pay rates are at the majors.

I reject the doo-wop heard constantly here that all blame for the state of our industry lies with certain pilot groups at so-called "bottom-feeders." An RAH guy once referred to myself and my sisters and brothers by that epithet. I am damned if some guy feasting on the rotting carcass of someone's Midwest Airlines career is calling me a "bottom-feeder" without a fight.

Some on this forum seem to feel very good about themselves because they work at a "good regional". They will bloviate about how pilots at other companies are "lowering the bar". I wonder if any of them would care to explain to me how the bar is raised by jobs leaving UAL and going to Skywest? From COA to BNA? From Midwest Airlines to RAH? From AAL to EGE?

"If all pilots refused to fly for the 'bottom-feeders' everything would be grand." This is a silly notion. Pilots will go where there is work, especially in this economy. If pilots at "good regionals" refused to fly jets and refused to perform the work formally done by major pilots, the bar would shoot to the moon. Neither of these scenarios will ever occur.

Proud of your job at a "career regional?" Swallow your pride and reflect on the fact that you perform work for less time off and 1/4 the pay in real dollars as the major pilots you have slowly replaced.

One of the main reasons that we are in this position is our lack of cohesiveness and the avalanche of market forces. Pilots have done a horrendous job of working together. Instead of bickering over the largest table scrap, we should all be in the same union working to expand flying at the majors, even if it means they fly regional jets and turboprops.

The Dash Whisperer

I'm a CFI and I see guys every day saying they can't wait to go to airlines like colgan, because you upgrade quickly and get turboprop time. With that type of mentality, they'll never fly anything bigger than a turboprop.

Me? I'd rather wait a bit more and build by experience then go to a "less bad" regional. I wonder why they fail to wonder "hmmm (bad regional) requires a CMEL, (less bad) regional requires 1000TT...I wonder why"

Hey Mr. CFI...
First get your facts straight... Colgan requires more than just a CMEL in fact right now competitive mins are 1500TT and 300ME. Whats wrong with flying a turboprop? Have you flown one or better yet do you have turbojet time to compare with? Just because people fly turboprops it doesn't keep them from moving on to bigger and better things.... I have friends who are in the corporate world flying GIV's and GV's after driving a B1900. Lets see... there are plenty of former Colgan pilots at World, Airtran, Spirit, Continental, and even a few at Southwest. Can you explain to me how they seemed to move along if they had your above stated mentality?
Just remember that Colgan still flies regional aircraft on regional routes.... the same cannot be said for companies like Compass, Republic, Skywest, Expressjet, and Comair to name a few.... sure they are great companies to work for but they don't have what I want in a company.
I enjoy knowing the people I work with on a first name basis. I enjoy being in my own bed every night. I enjoy living where I live and not having to worry about commuting.
Now that I have submitted my rebuttal I dare you to try and justify you original post.

First get your facts straight... Colgan requires more than just a CMEL in fact right now competitive mins are 1500TT and 300ME.

Firstly, my post never said Colgan requires a CMEL. I was making reference to the 2007 hiring boom, I thought it was obvious that nobody would hire a wet CMEL in January 2010- perhaps I should have been clearer.

Whats wrong with flying a turboprop?

Nothing’s wrong with spending your career in a turboprop (I was making this point to a student just yesterday), but most hope to fly a Boeing product at retirement.

Just because people fly turboprops it doesn't keep them from moving on to bigger and better things

Correct, but my point was agreeing with mooney, who said If I'm killing to fly the outsourced turboprop for poverty level wages, then there will be no mainline job at the end of my regional career.

Lastly, I’m not attacking Colgan pilots. I’m sure there are good folks there, just like anywhere else. People have their own reasons for flying for whatever company they pick. However, some people seem hung up about flying a bigger airplane...SJS. The size of the airplane is important, but not as important as the size of my paycheck. What good is it saying I fly a (Q400, CRJ, A320, 777) if the company isn’t paying me enough to support myself?

Do SkyWest pilots have a right to complain about the anal dilation their company is assisting them with via changes in health insurance?

The above CA is doing his/her share to keep overall wages down by allowing more flying to be outsourced to the regionals.

Most of the "good regionals" have furloughed as well.

Everyone weighs their choices differently. My goals do not include a long stretch in the right seat, so I factored that in. I am assuming that you have not yet flown for an airline and I chuckle at the confidence with which you seem to have figured out the industry. This industry cycles rapidly. It is one thing to assert that you will not go to a lesser regional when everyone is hiring. If only the lesser ones are hiring, how long will you wait? Will you make a career in a different segment of aviation? When the time comes, I hope you have many choices.

As another poster mentioned, plenty of t-prop pilots go on to majors without having to fly a microjet.


If you camp in the regionals flying regional jets, you are helping to move flying away from the majors and there will be no mainline job at the end of your career.

Pay is important. My advice; Stay lean, stay hungry. Do not get so cozy on $50,000/year at a regional that you won't jump to $34,000 for the first year at COA.

I prefer Turbo Props
 

I think that a pilot would actually serve himself/herself better to find a Turboprop job before flying a jet. There are a couple of reasons for this.

First, in most cases you can expect more cycles with a turboprop, which is the experience you really need on the front end of your career.

Second, it opens up another avenue for potential employment in the future. If you, like me, love to fly and would like to continue to do it until you can't pass your medical, a tprop part 135 or part 91 could be open to you after retirement from your airline career.

Third, turboprops are pretty cool! Of course, I may just be an airplane ***** as I will fly almost anything with wings, but the list of airplanes I would like type ratings in include a B1900, S340B, EMB120, and a King Air 350. Why? I don't really know. Wierd, maybe, but I think all of those aircraft are incredibly cool for different reasons. I would also like a type rating in a DC-3 because I think it is one of the most incredible aircraft ever made!

Although I would like to retire from a place with a 717 and/or 737 type (can you guess where?) TODAY I would prefer to fly turboprops over RJ's given the opportunity. (That could change tomorrow!)

If you want to get a type rating on Saab 340s, you better hurry. Mesaba is losing all their Saabs by 2011 or 2012, and Colgan will be the only ones flying Saabs.

I do agree with you turboprops are a blast to fly if you like to fly. All King Airs are fun to fly. A really well harmonized controls. There is an out fit out in CA where you can get a DC3 type rating. I have never flown one but I am told DC3s are great fun to fly, 1940s steam guages, tail dragger and all.

Hey Skip, you seem pretty confident about how to pick a regional even though you have never even worked for one.

A regional is a regional. No matter what, if you are at the bottom of the list, you are going to get crapped on. If you chase money, I will tell you right now, it is not worth it. Find one where you like a junior domicile, get hired and live in base. Commuting sucks no matter how you slice it. QOL is so much more important than the money.

If you make an extra 5k at a "better regional" but you are constantly paying for crashpads and airport food that you would not have to at a "crappy regional", then it is a wash. Majors do not care about which regional you come from so do not try to pull that one.

Get hired where you want to live and live in base. My favorite it people who got hired by an airline based on the east coast and they live in LA. And then they complain about commuting.

Lightning, It doesn't look like I will get a shot at a 340. I haven't applied at Colgan, and am not planning to. Got a letter from Mesaba a couple of years ago that said "Call us back when you have a First Class Medical" (I had it scheduled). After I got it (very soon thereafter), they weren't hiring anymore, and I would have gotten furloughed anyway. I don't know anyone else who flies them, so it will probably just stay on my list. There is also a place in Griffin, Georgia, that does DC-3 types, but I will have to be a Boeing captain before I can afford that! (Gimme a break, PFT guys! It's a DC-3 and I'm not talking about buying a job!) I have a little King Air 200 time and Twin Otter time. They are both a lot of fun!

Good point! Even most major airline pilots seem to get treated like wet food stamps by their employers. With the exception of SWA but you all knew that.

I have three types and I must say I "suffered" for that SF340 type. That was a bear. I didn't have any time in type before hand though.

Who did you get the 340 type with?

I would tend to disagree, every person has the right to work where they want and projecting your values on other pilots won't accomplish your goal of industry-wide unity. Personally, I'm at a "good regional" with hopes of moving on, however most guys in my base are lifers so I hear a good deal of rationalization about why at 35 they feel like they're over the hill. I try to remind them that the average new hire at the legacies and cargos are in their mid thirties and that getting in at the beginning of a wave can put thousands of a pilots behind you rapidly (UAL '97 hires vs '99 hires) but my arguments seem to fall on deaf ears. Their rational for sustainable QOL is quite understandable and in the long run, their choice benefits us because it'll be one more spot at a legacy for you or me.

I agree that regionals are still plagued with the "commuter" mentality although their operations are now both incredibly larger and more extensive. A national cohesiveness would be beneficial to pilots, but I don't think its realistically possible. Strong unions rarely exist in such cut-throat industries and when they do, eventually they can put incredibly financial strain on their company by preventing them from providing a competitively priced product (GM, Ford, etc). Longshoreman and the like derive their power from the fact that if they don't work, nobody else can fill in for them ( I found this link to illustrate that point: The Tuscaloosa News - Google News Archive Search) If GM stops making cars, that will hardly bring the automotive industry to a standstill, or if Continental struck tomorrow, the industry as a whole would continue to function. These industries are quite different from those that currently benefit from strong unions.

Wages and fuel are the two main operating costs airlines face and most airlines are much more fixated on tangible numerical representations rather than abstract ideas like higher morale improving efficiency or logistical positions being filled with intelligent individuals to increase resource utilization, therefore airlines will do what they can to prevent national labor unity and continue to negotiate separate contracts.

I like to think of Comair, not as a pyramid, but more like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It was glorious and wonderful when it was built....but now it's crumbling away and about to crash to the ground.

Stick that metaphor in your hat and smmmmoke it! :D

[quote=duvie;751190]Projecting my values may not achieve solidarity, but it does kill time on the internet. I wish pilots were more unified, human nature not withstanding. I also like to bang back against the concept of good and bad regionals. I think we need to understand what has been lost in this profession and try to regain some of it instead of jabbing at each other over who's more bit-chen because they get 1-2 more days off a month and $2-3 more a flight hour. Instead of wasting energy trying to feel superior to pilots at "bad regionals" we should invest energy in ways to work together.

Are unions to blame when companies fail? The current state of our auto industry is a result of poor planning and decision-making on the part of the heads of these businesses. I'm sure someone smart enough to run a huge company like GM is smart enough to negotiate with a union.


We would be treated a lot differently if the NLRA did not require so much time and place so many barriers before a strike. In your example, if COA struck tomorrow, the industry might be okay, but COA would sure be motivated to bargain in good faith and reach a mutually satisfactory deal with its pilots.

The NLRA should be changed so that union pilots can more effectively bargain. Pilots need to stop competing against each other to see who can work the most and earn the least. The balance of power needs to shift back toward unions enough that companies are forced to reasonably price goods and services so that living wages and benefits are paid.

The Dash Whisperer

I've smoked quite enough of Comair's crap for the last 7 years.

Don't you want a pager? Because at Comair you'll have one until you hit 20 years.

Actually I'd be hard pressed to think of anything Comair has that anyone would want, unless it's to learn how grumpy 15,000-hour Captains fly planes.

What about, all the Biscoff cookies you can eat? (So, I got that goin' for me!!):D