Colgan Sunshine Hearing
02-02-2010, 01:55 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by yamahas3
The NTSB spent all day long today talking about this pilot's ability. There is a point where you no longer can be touchy-feely about it and have to be very serious about the fact that this pilot's actions in a perfectly airworthy airplane and Colgan's choice to employ this pilot ended up killing dozens of people.
Its not an opinion, its an NTSB finding. Piloting ability of this level should be unacceptable in a Part 121 cockpit.
I have nothing bad to say about the guy as a person, never met him, don't know anything about him other than his piloting ability. But I do have very strong feelings about that ability because we have to remember that there are a lot of families out there missing loved ones because of it. This isn't something that should be tolerated whatsoever. Us pilots, airlines, and the FAA all need to hold ourselves and each other to a much higher standard so that this sort of crash does not happen. It was preventable and a lot of people could still be with us had someone else been sitting in that cockpit.
Its not an opinion, its an NTSB finding. Piloting ability of this level should be unacceptable in a Part 121 cockpit.
I have nothing bad to say about the guy as a person, never met him, don't know anything about him other than his piloting ability. But I do have very strong feelings about that ability because we have to remember that there are a lot of families out there missing loved ones because of it. This isn't something that should be tolerated whatsoever. Us pilots, airlines, and the FAA all need to hold ourselves and each other to a much higher standard so that this sort of crash does not happen. It was preventable and a lot of people could still be with us had someone else been sitting in that cockpit.
The fact of the matter is that nobody knows how they would handle something until it happens to them. People will make mistakes just like those AA pilots that direct enter entered it into a mountain in South America. Actually to me 3407 is more benign than the Comair guys that took off of the wrong runway, how basic is that?? The point is let's not judge and try to fly safe. I just hope that there won't be too much of a knee jerk reaction for us lowly "dangerous" regional pilots but I'm not holding my breath.
02-02-2010, 01:55 PM
#14
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Jimmy Hoffa:
Thanks for posting your first post, all be it a doozy.
THE STALL WARNING WAS GOING OFF SECONDS BEFORE THE STICK PUSHER !!!!
That means, they incorrectly identified a stall buffet on the wings, the slow airspeed indications, and the stall warning -- the most basic skill taught to ANY pilot.
The Stick Pusher and/or their lack of training on a Stick Pusher, is irrelevant. There is no training for a Stick Pusher. Why? Because if you're getting a stick push it means you are already in a deep stall. Nobody trains to recover from a deep stall because we spend all of our time trying to prevent one and just incase you approach one, there are enough bells and whistles and physical signals for you to react in time appropiately.
We could go on and on about what training they did not receive. For example, why did they not have inverted stall training? I mean, it is possible isn't it? Why didn't they have fugoid training in case the tail falls off? It is possible isn't it? The simple fact is, the Stick Pusher and the associated functions are in the Aircraft Operating Manual. Did the crew read it? Did they ask questions of the instructors about what a Stick Pusher is for? We don't know.
But what we do know is, he did everything opposite of what you do for a basic aerodynamic stall. I know that sucks, but it is what it is. The company shares some blame as another posted commented because based on his flying history, he should not have been PIC -- or perhaps should have been scrutinized a bit more.
They stalled ... they reacted incorrectly. Get over it.
Thanks for posting your first post, all be it a doozy.
THE STALL WARNING WAS GOING OFF SECONDS BEFORE THE STICK PUSHER !!!!
That means, they incorrectly identified a stall buffet on the wings, the slow airspeed indications, and the stall warning -- the most basic skill taught to ANY pilot.
The Stick Pusher and/or their lack of training on a Stick Pusher, is irrelevant. There is no training for a Stick Pusher. Why? Because if you're getting a stick push it means you are already in a deep stall. Nobody trains to recover from a deep stall because we spend all of our time trying to prevent one and just incase you approach one, there are enough bells and whistles and physical signals for you to react in time appropiately.
We could go on and on about what training they did not receive. For example, why did they not have inverted stall training? I mean, it is possible isn't it? Why didn't they have fugoid training in case the tail falls off? It is possible isn't it? The simple fact is, the Stick Pusher and the associated functions are in the Aircraft Operating Manual. Did the crew read it? Did they ask questions of the instructors about what a Stick Pusher is for? We don't know.
But what we do know is, he did everything opposite of what you do for a basic aerodynamic stall. I know that sucks, but it is what it is. The company shares some blame as another posted commented because based on his flying history, he should not have been PIC -- or perhaps should have been scrutinized a bit more.
They stalled ... they reacted incorrectly. Get over it.
i know that his stick pusher was a result of getting ridiculously slow, however I have had a stick pusher due to severe turbulence, and it wasn't on final so we had plenty of extra airspeed. The stall warning into shaker into pusher happened in less than a second, couple that with the master warning bell blaring at you because of an autopilotfail on the EICAS, while you are still dealing with severe turbulence, and things can become very confusing, very quickly. When all of a sudden the yoke is pulling away from you because of some computer logic, your first instinct is going to be to pull back, regardless of how many times you do it in the sim.
I am just trying to bring some insight into all these monday morning quarterbacks who are so willing and able to throw our own under the bus, when they weren't there.
02-02-2010, 02:01 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by Jimmy Hoffa
wait till you have an actual stick pusher in flight and try to tell me your first instinct was not to pull back. regardless of training for it, its happens so quick and is so startling/scary that i bet 95% of you will pull back as well.
the entire industry including there peers unfortunately threw these 2 under the bus.
the entire industry including there peers unfortunately threw these 2 under the bus.
02-02-2010, 02:04 PM
#16
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A-320
Posts: 784
They SHOULD be thrown under the bus...they failed at their job miserably and some people want to say "awww they didnt get enough night night time" Who cares. I could be up for 24 hours straight and not pull up in a stall. FAIL Lets Raise the bar and learn from this instead of making excuses. Self accountability goes a long way when it comes to safety!
02-02-2010, 02:06 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
J
The Stick Pusher and/or their lack of training on a Stick Pusher, is irrelevant. .
The Stick Pusher and/or their lack of training on a Stick Pusher, is irrelevant. .
02-02-2010, 02:09 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by Jimmy Hoffa
wait till you have an actual stick pusher in flight and try to tell me your first instinct was not to pull back. regardless of training for it, its happens so quick and is so startling/scary that i bet 95% of you will pull back as well.
the entire industry including there peers unfortunately threw these 2 under the bus.
the entire industry including there peers unfortunately threw these 2 under the bus.
and that only proves, by your rationale good sir, that 5% of the pilot population should be making a lot more money.
02-02-2010, 02:11 PM
#20
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,505
Originally Posted by AirWillie
Stall recovery of an airliner is not basic knowledge, it's pretty advanced stuff.
Maintain sufficient flying speed and the airplane doesn't stall - simple as that.
Failing that, lower the nose to break the aerodynamic wing stall while adding power to recover the altitude lost.
Just like a 172...
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