Colgan Sunshine Hearing
02-02-2010, 02:13 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Jimmy Hoffa:
We could go on and on about what training they did not receive. For example, why did they not have inverted stall training? I mean, it is possible isn't it? Why didn't they have fugoid training in case the tail falls off? It is possible isn't it? The simple fact is, the Stick Pusher and the associated functions are in the Aircraft Operating Manual. Did the crew read it? Did they ask questions of the instructors about what a Stick Pusher is for? We don't know.
We could go on and on about what training they did not receive. For example, why did they not have inverted stall training? I mean, it is possible isn't it? Why didn't they have fugoid training in case the tail falls off? It is possible isn't it? The simple fact is, the Stick Pusher and the associated functions are in the Aircraft Operating Manual. Did the crew read it? Did they ask questions of the instructors about what a Stick Pusher is for? We don't know.
02-02-2010, 02:18 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
No, its really not.
Maintain sufficient flying speed and the airplane doesn't stall - simple as that.
Failing that, lower the nose to break the aerodynamic wing stall while adding power to recover the altitude lost.
Just like a 172...
Maintain sufficient flying speed and the airplane doesn't stall - simple as that.
Failing that, lower the nose to break the aerodynamic wing stall while adding power to recover the altitude lost.
Just like a 172...
02-02-2010, 02:29 PM
#23
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Just because they screwed the pooch in execution doesn't mean its some difficult thing to recover from a stall in a transport-category airplane.
If anything, the Q400 would be easier than a jet because of its straight wing...BUT that still doesn't change the fact you recover from a stall in a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cub or Learjet or a Q400 or a 777 in the EXACT SAME FASHION: break the stall by lowering the nose and recover with power.
But again, as a professional pilot, its best to mind the store and never allow your airplane's speed to slow to shaker (let alone pusher) speed...
If anything, the Q400 would be easier than a jet because of its straight wing...BUT that still doesn't change the fact you recover from a stall in a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cub or Learjet or a Q400 or a 777 in the EXACT SAME FASHION: break the stall by lowering the nose and recover with power.
But again, as a professional pilot, its best to mind the store and never allow your airplane's speed to slow to shaker (let alone pusher) speed...
02-02-2010, 02:58 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Just because they screwed the pooch in execution doesn't mean its some difficult thing to recover from a stall in a transport-category airplane.
If anything, the Q400 would be easier than a jet because of its straight wing...BUT that still doesn't change the fact you recover from a stall in a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cub or Learjet or a Q400 or a 777 in the EXACT SAME FASHION: break the stall by lowering the nose and recover with power.
But again, as a professional pilot, its best to mind the store and never allow your airplane's speed to slow to shaker (let alone pusher) speed...
If anything, the Q400 would be easier than a jet because of its straight wing...BUT that still doesn't change the fact you recover from a stall in a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cub or Learjet or a Q400 or a 777 in the EXACT SAME FASHION: break the stall by lowering the nose and recover with power.
But again, as a professional pilot, its best to mind the store and never allow your airplane's speed to slow to shaker (let alone pusher) speed...
atp
02-02-2010, 03:57 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 737 Left
Posts: 828
Case in point-
Marvin Renslow should not have been the CA of Colgan 3407. The company should have been monitoring him. I knew him personally and he was a great guy, but he was not a professional airline pilot. Unfortunately, this happened to be the wrong pairing at the wrong time.
RIP to those poor passengers, flight attendants and the jumpseater.
Marvin Renslow should not have been the CA of Colgan 3407. The company should have been monitoring him. I knew him personally and he was a great guy, but he was not a professional airline pilot. Unfortunately, this happened to be the wrong pairing at the wrong time.
RIP to those poor passengers, flight attendants and the jumpseater.
02-02-2010, 04:29 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: CRJ <-
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by AirWillie
When was the last time you did stalls at 1000 agl in your airliner? It's basic knowledge isn't it??? I'm pretty sure they knew how to get out of a stall in theory. This crew was not properly trained in stall recovery of their airplane under specified conditions.
02-02-2010, 04:46 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: forever fo
Posts: 2,413
I fly around with people hanging off my plane, and when the stall buzzer goes off the first thing i do is get the nose down and get airspeed, it happens once in awhile when I got 4 people climbing out and around the plane, but I know to push the nose down, i dont think a stick shaker would cause me to do anything diff, esp w time in a sim prior
Originally Posted by yamahas3
The captain pulling back induced the pusher, not the other way around.
When getting an unexpect shaker in flight, the IMMEDIATE reaction from any pilot should be a huge, flashing, neon sign going off in their head that reads "AIRSPEED!!!" followed immediately by the two things all pilots should have as a muscle memory to give them airspeed - pitching down and adding power.
This captain didn't have the ability to keep himself out of a situation he didn't have the skill to get himself out of.
When getting an unexpect shaker in flight, the IMMEDIATE reaction from any pilot should be a huge, flashing, neon sign going off in their head that reads "AIRSPEED!!!" followed immediately by the two things all pilots should have as a muscle memory to give them airspeed - pitching down and adding power.
This captain didn't have the ability to keep himself out of a situation he didn't have the skill to get himself out of.
02-02-2010, 05:04 PM
#28
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 17
half of you are still missing my point. yes we all know that stall recovery is private pilot 101, but until you actually experience an unexpected stick pusher(not one in the sim that you know is coming), it is a very disorienting experiencing and i can see perfectly well what went wrong with the crew. yes it was their fault to get so slow to begin with but please do not hang these people out to dry. It could happen to any of you.
how many of you have experienced a stick pusher in flight? I am guessing not many because when we told my company about this they stared at me wide eyed, they had heard of that almost never happening.
so picture this. Once crewmember is sick, they are both tired and its the last leg to their overnight. They both zoned out and stopped paying attention to their airspeed. An unexpected stick shaker followed by a pusher and I can see why your natural body reaction is to pull back. Just have some compassion on these folks and stop thinking that you are super pilots.
p.s. I do not work for Colgan, I do not know the crew.
Originally Posted by Jimmy Hoffa
i know that his stick pusher was a result of getting ridiculously slow, however I have had a stick pusher due to severe turbulence, and it wasn't on final so we had plenty of extra airspeed. The stall warning into shaker into pusher happened in less than a second, couple that with the master warning bell blaring at you because of an autopilotfail on the EICAS, while you are still dealing with severe turbulence, and things can become very confusing, very quickly. When all of a sudden the yoke is pulling away from you because of some computer logic, your first instinct is going to be to pull back, regardless of how many times you do it in the sim.
I am just trying to bring some insight into all these monday morning quarterbacks who are so willing and able to throw our own under the bus, when they weren't there.
I am just trying to bring some insight into all these monday morning quarterbacks who are so willing and able to throw our own under the bus, when they weren't there.
so picture this. Once crewmember is sick, they are both tired and its the last leg to their overnight. They both zoned out and stopped paying attention to their airspeed. An unexpected stick shaker followed by a pusher and I can see why your natural body reaction is to pull back. Just have some compassion on these folks and stop thinking that you are super pilots.
p.s. I do not work for Colgan, I do not know the crew.
02-02-2010, 05:33 PM
#29
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,262
Originally Posted by Jimmy Hoffa
wait till you have an actual stick pusher in flight and try to tell me your first instinct was not to pull back. regardless of training for it, its happens so quick and is so startling/scary that i bet 95% of you will pull back as well.
the entire industry including there peers unfortunately threw these 2 under the bus.
the entire industry including there peers unfortunately threw these 2 under the bus.
"Peers" is an interesting concept. By all accounts RS had the potential to have a successful flying career, all she needed was opportunity and experience, some of which she would have gotten at colgan.
I'm not entirely certain that MR was my peer in every sense. Just because he got into a regional airline cockpit under dubious circumstances doesn't make us all one big family. That said, I have no hard feelings for him, only sadness for him and his family. It wasn't his fault that he was in the position he was in, IMO.
I have had a stick shaker on an approach (ADC malfunction). As a crew, we added power and evaluated what was going on without making any sudden attitude changes. I don't think either of us had an uncontrollable urge to pull the yoke full aft, and I sure as hell hope that there aren't too many folks out there who would.
02-02-2010, 05:40 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
If anything, the Q400 would be easier than a jet because of its straight wing...BUT that still doesn't change the fact you recover from a stall in a Cessna 150 or a Piper Cub or Learjet or a Q400 or a 777 in the EXACT SAME FASHION: break the stall by lowering the nose and recover with power.
But again, as a professional pilot, its best to mind the store and never allow your airplane's speed to slow to shaker (let alone pusher) speed...
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