Colgan Sunshine Hearing
02-02-2010, 10:13 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I noted that the NTSB elected not to include fatigue as a casual factor, by a 2-1 vote.
02-02-2010, 10:32 PM
#43
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by dh05z28
Just heard that the rest requirements are about to change...Don't know to what or exactly when. I heard March 1. Any truth to this?
02-03-2010, 12:07 AM
#44
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
I hate in this instance when people keep using the phrase "Monday morning quarterbacking". What do you think is going to happen when you goof up and kill a bunch of people? Your actions are going to be scrutinized to the Nth degree.
Yes, we weren't there. It could happen to anyone of us (loss of airspeed). But all of us are trained to how to react to a stall. They got the stall warning a couple of seconds (I forget how many) before the pusher. Yes, it is going to get your attention, but the damn stall warning going off should have before that!
The ironic part is, the stick pusher was trying to do exactly what needed to be down ... lowering the nose.
The situation you described (high speed buffet in turbulent cruise) is very much different than theres.
Its a hard thing to admit; our fellow aviators and friends goofed up in the most basic way. For the sake of our family, friends, and passengers, that nobody else does this. We're better than that.
Yes, we weren't there. It could happen to anyone of us (loss of airspeed). But all of us are trained to how to react to a stall. They got the stall warning a couple of seconds (I forget how many) before the pusher. Yes, it is going to get your attention, but the damn stall warning going off should have before that!
The ironic part is, the stick pusher was trying to do exactly what needed to be down ... lowering the nose.
The situation you described (high speed buffet in turbulent cruise) is very much different than theres.
Its a hard thing to admit; our fellow aviators and friends goofed up in the most basic way. For the sake of our family, friends, and passengers, that nobody else does this. We're better than that.
The crew should have been able to recover from a stall. Many have commented on the FO retracting flaps, unfortunately, that WAS what Colgan's FAA APPROVED training commanded. (stall recover training has since been changed)
The real root of the crash is that the plane should never have gotten slow. We as "professionals" should never allow that to happen. So, why did this crew let it happen? Was it fatigue or illness or maybe both had their plates at their sides rather than on the yolk and were taking one last look ? Had one of them been more alert, he/she could have identified the degrading speed and this would have been a non event.
I don't know, and I don't care to guess.
All we as "professionals" can do is identify hazardous situations, and bad habits EACH of us has, and work to eliminate them. Equally important, we need to put pressure on the FAA and our companies to increase minimum standards and improve training.
On a personal level, we should also realize the mistakes we have made, admit we made them, and thank Dog that they didn't end with a crash.
02-03-2010, 05:35 AM
#46
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Originally Posted by gtech88
I'm not familiar with the Q-400, but isn't the recovery from a tailplane icing stall, Pitch-up, Flaps-up? Pitch down in that situation and you've screwed the pootch.
C'mon now........
02-03-2010, 05:50 AM
#48
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by Great Cornholio
The main thing that sucks about this accident is the fact that it was a classic stall/spin accident which should never ever happen in the 121 world.
02-03-2010, 06:09 AM
#49
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
they weren't capable of keep the plaen at a flying airpseed, you think they were quick enough to think they had Tail ice?
C'mon now........
C'mon now........
They were probably fatigued, demonstrated a lack of very basic airmanship, and there is no evidence that either one one of them had ever even of HEARD of a tailplane stall, much less knew what to do about one.
But some folks think they BOTH reached a tailplane stall conclusion instantly and simultaneously, communicated via mental telepathy, and independently took the appropriate actions???
Why is there a need to keep hanging onto that straw? It is not helping anything at all. We need the process to focus on the real problems...
1) Training
2) Experience
3) Professionalism
We have to rely on the FAA and the airlines to fix 1 & 2, but we can all take a turn on #3. I personally have adopted a more sterile attitude after this accident. Same with CVG, ever since that one I verify RWY HDG as the levers come up.
02-03-2010, 06:10 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Goodyear Blimp-roap jockey, CSIP, CFII, MEI
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
Oh really? You can't be serious?
I've flown two airliners (a heavy with sweptback wings and a medium sized airliner with tiny little wings). I've also flown a business jet, the beechliner, and a trainer. Conventional wings and sweptback wings. All of them had the same recovery as my little Cessna 152.
I don't know what is so advanced with Add Power, Relax Pitch, Gain Airspeed??? Perhaps there are some aircraft out there that throw in a few tricks up their sleeves, but I don't know them.
Their airmanship and situational awareness were extremely poor that night.
I've flown two airliners (a heavy with sweptback wings and a medium sized airliner with tiny little wings). I've also flown a business jet, the beechliner, and a trainer. Conventional wings and sweptback wings. All of them had the same recovery as my little Cessna 152.
I don't know what is so advanced with Add Power, Relax Pitch, Gain Airspeed??? Perhaps there are some aircraft out there that throw in a few tricks up their sleeves, but I don't know them.
Their airmanship and situational awareness were extremely poor that night.
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