Back when the ATP was established I believe it had an education minimum of High School Diploma written in the reg. Why? Because the founders of those rules wanted a certain caliber of person for an ATP above and beyond the average person who probably didn't finish high school back then. We are many decades later and now that equivalent should be a college degree since nearly everyone gets a high school diploma now. I'm not sure if they still have the education requirement anymore in the reg, but if not it's just another example of the dumb down of the profession that's been happening over the years.

Public comments on the APPRM are beginning to get published on the government's website.

View them below by searching for "FAA-2010-0100":

Regulations.gov

College degree is required for all professional jobs so why shouldn't it be required for Professional airline pilot jobs? Major airlines require it and Congress wants to make the hiring requirements for regionals equal to majors. So yeah, I think college degree should be required. BTW, military requires it too, if you want to be a pilot. A college degree does not have to an aviation degree.

I think eventually, pilots will be required to get a security clearance if this CrewPass will become a reality at all US airports. Plus, why should we have to compete with aliens for few pilot positions there are in the US? We can't go over to France, Italy or Germany and get an airline pilot job with Air France or Lufthansa unless we get French or German citizenship so why should some European pilot come over here and take our jobs? All government jobs, law enforcement and related defense contractor jobs also require US citizenship. So it's not a new concept.

A CFI payrate is not relevant to our discussion. Why would ATP requirements lower CFI payrate? There's no correlation. At any case, CFI payrate is not likely to go down. If anything, it is projected to go up along with the cost of learning to fly just like everything else in this country.

An ATP and 1500 hours should be required at a minimum to be hired as an airline pilot and there is no shortage of pilots in the US with this qualifications.

You must be an aviation major from one of those schools like Embry Riddle or UND, or Flight Safety International. Otherwise you would not be making a comment like the one you made. I mean you write you don't see why a college degree should be required but if it is required it should be an aviation degree? So you don't think a college degree will make a better professional pilot unless it's an aviation degree? Your argument holds no logic and thankfully you are in the minority as well as not being a member of our profession. There are thousands and thousands of unemployed US pilots right now and when regional and major airlines start hiring again, there would be no shortage of ATP pilots with part 121 experience. I find it ironic that only people objecting to proposed new hiring requirements are people like you who are not even a professional pilot yet.

If that ever happens, I wonder if they'll allow SSBIs to count or if they'll require the simpler NALAC check for everybody. We are talking about government, so a Department of Redundancy Department isn't out of the question...

Regarding the military...you have to have a degree to be an officer, and have to be an officer to be a pilot (with exception of warrant officer positions). I don't think one can really equalize the qualification standards of the military for their leadership positions with civilian flying jobs.


Major airlines only "require" a degree inasmuch as its another screening qualification for HR....there's nothing regulatory about it. Regional airlines could "require" a bachelors or higher degree today for their newhires if they wanted to...

I know what you mean about the govt of redundancy. BTW I was a military pilot and an officer so I know what the requirements are for the military. You are right about waarant officers but most warrant officers I met during my tour all had at least an associate or Bachelors. They chose to be warrant officers because they did not want bureacratic responsibilities that goes along with being an officer. Each to his own.

I suspect as far as security clearance goes, there will probably be very little changes from current background investigations requirements for CASS approval, maybe a little more in depth. Who knows what direction the govt will take.

??????????????
 

I find these threads so funny, ironic, and sad.

There are a lot of wanna-be pilots and regional pilots who complain that a degree shouldn't be a requirement for an ATP and an ATP shouldn't be required for fly Part 121. Yet, they complain and whine about the regional companies lack of pay and aweful work rules. And they get upset when a major airline pilot gives them a good ribbing (reference the Colgan reaction to the Delta/Northwest reations of this year).

Regional flying is now the mainstay in this country. They're bigger than the majors. The jobs that the wanna-bes and regional pilots seek are in essence shrinking and losing market share to the regional companies.

There's no difference between a regional pilot and a major airline pilot. In fact, regional flying is pretty demanding due to the high ops tempo, weather/freezing altitude flying, and the low morale that comes with the crappy pay/work rules.

HOWEVER, when some of us major pilots suggest a way for the regional pilots to command more respect, more pay (for example, getting a college degree and making it a requirement for an ATP etc.etc.), they get angry with you. And they fail to see and understand that these are the things that will help them command more pay, respect, and thus stop the race to the bottom.

But no no no, someone has to point out that even a high schooler can fly an airplane and he/she's right. So can monkeys. But passengers don't want monkeys flying their airplane. So stop being a monkey!

If our passengers really knew about the flying experience and education levels of some of the pilots at regionals, I bet the demand for tickets on those flight segments operated by regionals would decline. The reality is, professional pilots don't get paid to fly airplanes, they're paid for the leadership, technical knowledge, and flying skills. It is time our country stopped dumbing down this profession and bring back the prestige it deserves.

When I've read the works of Ernest Gann and Bob Buck I get the impression that pilots, especially Captains, were professionals who were not to be trifled with. Folks in the whole company treated them with respect.

Today, not so much. Remove and replace employee is the SOP. This is due to a whole myriad of reasons, not least of which is the sheer number of folks waiting in line like a bunch of vultures to take said job.

End rant.

+1. I could not have said it better. Very ironic that these wannabes are the only ones objecting to the proposed new standards for airline pilot hiring.

3. Legal Recidents working as pilot in US airlines have all security clearance and have to do it over and over again every year for recurrent training. I know. I am one of them. We are more security cleared than any US born pilot.

I don't need a lecture from an alien as to what is required for a security clearance. I held one one of the highest as an officer in the US military. You as a legal resident do not get the same level of clearance as a US citizen. I am not going to debate this point. It is what it is. To say you are more security cleared than a US citizen is nonsense. Try that logic at a job interview with the US government.

9. The amount of unemployed pilots in the US today would just cover the need for one year of hiring at peak levels with top retirement numbers like in 3 years from now. The year after that the aviation colleges would only be able to supply 15 to 20% of the demand.<quote>.

Another Nonsense. Majors and regionals are shrinking. Regionals are shrinking faster than you can say nuts. I say again for those hard of hearing, There is no shortage of qualified pilots in the US. There are plenty of well qualified pilots, from furloughed and working regional pilots, corporate pilots, freight pilots, and military pilots waiting for better opportunities to show up in the next couple of years. The reason why so many regionals hired so many 350 hour wonders in 2008 time frame is because very few ATP rated pilots could afford to fly for $23/hour at a regional when you can make more doing just about anything else.

First, I'll admit I am someone that is low time, trying to come up the ranks and pay my dues but I see part of this proposal as a disaster.

I agree that more training always improves safety. But the 1,500 hour ATP minimums I disagree with. This is why: When Joe Pilot finishes his commercial single and multi training he could anywhere from 250 hours on up. So when he goes hunting for a job, 250 hours isn't enough. What's Joe Pilot going to do? Find the cheapest (lets admit it, we are all broke) way to gain the hours needed to meet the current hiring minimums to stay competitive. Joe Pilot is going to go a couple different ways to accomplish this. A) Earn a CFI/CFII/MEI rating and instruct until he is satisfied with his hours. During this he could be giving quality instruction or just be a yoke holder to log time. B) Buy time the cheapest way possible, either in C152's, J3 Cubs or a multi time building program. C) Fly banners, sky divers and other low time pilot positions, whenever insurance allows him to come on board. Or D) Military flight officer.

So out of those options which one most like 121 flying? A? Not in my mind. How does 2,000 hours in the pattern flying a 152, 172, Seminole, Dutchess transfer into flying a CRJ, ScareBus or Boeing? I don't see it. C? From I have read here and heard from other sources, banner towing and skydiving is still legal time, but not always accepted. D) I was enlisted, served my time and left with an honorable discharge and the GI Bill. Therefore I don't have first hand experience with the selection process, commissioning, and the going through flight school... So I couldn't fly, but as the saying goes "My parents couldn't afford to put me through college, but Uncle Sam can." Here I am, earned my ratings and going down path A. In my mind B is the closest to it. If you buy into a 'academy' type school. Isn't the the goal here, to "train like you fight" for that 121 dream job?

I agree with higher education, experience and ratings should be rewarded with better compensation. But if everyone should have an ATP before interviewing, how does that new standard become any better than the current? What's to say a first year FO with an ATP doesn't get paid minimum wage?

You hit the nail on the head with that one!

The college degrees required for other professional, licensed jobs are professional degrees in their field. Lawyers need law degrees. Doctors need medical degrees. Engineers need engineering degrees. I'm unaware of any profession that requires a degree unrelated to the career field. If pilots are to be considered professionals in that way, a degree in political science, psychology, biology, or engineering (in which I have my degree) wouldn't make sense.

Now I think an airline having a requirement for a degree for their hiring minimums makes sense. It gives some indication about the general experience and abilities of the individual and could factor into whether they want them as an employee. However, a non-related degree has little bearing on your ability to safely and effectively practice a profession.

And as was mentioned by BoilerUP, the military requires a college degree to be an comissioned officer, not to be a pilot. Even if the vast majority of pilot warrant officers have degrees, it is not a requirement.

Just to be clear I am in favor of increasing mins for all 121 pilots to an ATP certificate (and don't think a four year college degree makes sense as an ATP requirement).

The idea that people who are legally in this country, who are legally allowed to work in this country, and are otherwise fully qualified for a job should be legally excluded from that job because you don't want as much competition when you apply for it....

I don't know that I can even respond to that in language that would be appropriate for this forum.

Yeah, it is not like we are a country of immigrants who have only been here for a few hundred years. What's that? We are? Oh yeah.

I've got to agree, the opinion that we are going to disallow people who are legally allowed to work her here the opportunity to work is asinine. Pure selfeshness and nothing more.

Then don't. Stop trolling airline forum and go back to your C152. Change in hiring stds are coming whether student wannabes like you want them or not.

Selfishness you say? Try getting a flying job in Europe and then tell us how that will go without European citizenship. If they require it why shouldn't we require it in the US. We have the most liberal immigration and employment policy in the world. Either you have difficulty with your reading or just plain too lazy to read the entire post. Don't take it out of context and twist it to suit your agenda. Whatever they maybe.

Requiring citizenship for certain jobs is nothing new or a novelty. It is a fact for many jobs in the US, including the private sector.

Save the fake outrage, it's a two-way street. We use to immigrate people to this country when there was a shortage of qualified workers. Not to mention the elephant in the room...

yeah right....
 

:(Talk about Nonsense:confused:

The only Regional shrinking are the ones owned by majors (eccept for Mesa but that is another story) or do you mean that Republic, Skywest, GoJet, Pinnacle and even Colgan are shrinking?

The amount of 350 wonders hired 2007-2008 are not many at all like you would like people to believe. 2% of the Regional pilots actually. The FAA has the numbers. Check them out. Some Regionals kept 1000 TT and 100 ME even during 2007-2008. I should know as my Regional had that. My class 2007 had only guys with an average of 3000 hours and even a couple of guys with 7000 hours TT. All of them seemed to be able to afford the $23 for the first year as they where there.

You dont know squat and are just guessing without having done any home work and then you like to call others that done it for "nonsense".

Other you are an old fart at a major with very small windows, negative attitude and think he knows it all because he says so or you are a young punk that is bitter and thinks that is everyones else fault he can not move forward fast enough in his career. What ever you are you sure sound like voices from the 1930 and 40 in Germany, trying to blaim your problems on foreigners and who knows what else.

Maybe you should learn another language than English and get more global and try your luck in other places. I had 15 years as a Commercial pilot, worked for 3 companies, many thousends hours and more than 1000 just in Turbine time before I started with my Regional (you can call me wonder if you like) and I do not have a negative attitude like you because of that. I could be complaining that I should have been at a major instead but when I hear the attitude and what comes out from some of the major pilots mouth I am glad that I am at the Regionals where most do not have other options than just be humble. All roads are not easy, all are different and one has to do the best of it. I do not blaim others if i cannot move forward. that' for sure.

We all had to start at $23. I wish we could change the pay. Heck I want to get $123 to start but that is dreaming at the moment.

If you cannot afford to take a job then look for something else or try to change what Regional pilots are being paid in an active way or maybe just maybe you should think about even adapting your way of living to the $23 an hour for the first year like most of us had to.............:cool:

Yes Sir, You do (both the lecture form the Alien from out of space and yes you need the security clearance) if you are a legal Resident and (very important) a Pilot working for a US Airline. Every time a Legal Resident wants to work for a US Airline he has to open an account with Homeland Security and get a Security Clearance and that Clearance has to be renewed every year for recurrent. And that Legal resident pilot working at a US Airline has been checked more in FBI files, fingerprints and everything else than any US born pilot. That is what I ment with being cleared. I did not mean a Military clearance to read secret files woooho....

Another note, Many Legal Residents have American family. (American spouse and kids). What you are trying to do is discriminate family members of Americans. Shame on you.

I am sure that todays US militaries have better values, more connected to what build this great country. And yes I can say it because I am also becoming American and that very soon.

Most of my family are Americans and I kept my old nationality to give my American part of the family the opportunity to travel and live in Europe if they wanted. This country was built by immigrants. We are all created as equals like all immigrants that build this country wanted it to be.
You should go back and study your history and constitution. Yes I am doing it. At the same time read Mein kampf by a known fellow with Ideas simmilar to yours.

How are you going to chase me or discriminate the immigrants that become Americans like me...(you probably would think "darn another one escape by becoming American")....will you discriminate me for my religion or political views??

Your lack of understanding why a college degree shows. Doctors typically get a bachelors in some type of technical degree (chemistry, biology, maybe engineering). They then compete to get into medical school where they go through highly specialized training. But they must know the basics (calculus, chemistry, biology, physics, and be well spoken (English)) in order to be a doctor.

What we are saying is that a professional pilot must also have the basics; some type of college degree that emphasizes the math, physics, English, and possibly management. Then you go on and get your training in flight school.

Keep dumbing down the profession and keep watching your pay check dwindle. The more you devalue yourself, the less you are worth. :rolleyes:

A solution is to make changes in what is required to be a pilot from the moment you start at a flight school.
In Europe the Commercial pilot certification is a College degree itself (2 year) that can be achieved at many Universities. I believe we have that also here in the US in Aviation college.


I am all for higher education demands for pilots but it has to be related. What is the point in having a 4 years degree in art or interior design if you are going to be an airline pilot?

If to be able to apply and start for your Private, instrument and then commercial pilot licence you would have to prove High school graduation, high scores and grades, pass a common knowledge test and a personality test and be security cleared by checking all you files crimminal records and fingerprints then all certificates up to ATP exam could be valuated as a 2 year degree like in Europe. It can then be build up with 2 years points in managements and other subjects to be a 4 years degree.

In Europe to start at an Aviation Academy you have to pass many knowledge, personality, medical test and have clean records.

maybe we should look at that here too.

ATP-Total Time-Education
 

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Having a degree will NOT make you a Better pilot or Make you more qualified BUT! Having obtained a degree puts you in the ballpark for a manager's profession and Being an ATP at a major or a Regional is about as much as Managing as it is flying. Having a Degree makes one more well rounded in the Overall scheme. My degree is in Aviation Maintenence Management. When I flew, my degree meant little except that I knew a little more about aircraft systems than some other guys. Now that I can no longer fly My degree is of an immense proportion because it IS my livelyhood, It didn't Make me a better Pilot but I Understand things Of Piloting to a FAR greater degree than I would Having Never Been a Pilot and I can explain things TO a pilot to a greatere degree. Though In truth I sometimes DO speak with pilots who's degrees appear to be a "plaque on the wall" as they seem to have very little sense of Expertise in what they're doing Or how they relate to those who assist them.. In dispatch OR Mantenence. Truth be told, a degree in Aviation isn't a Bad idea either.
But Who can you sell THAT Idea TO?!?! The 1500TT proposal is going to see a "Hard row to Hoe". . Especially from Airline Management, the ATA, Or the RAA because THEN they'd have to PAY you..
(GASP!) "get the rope! we gotta string this Owlhoot up on general principles of management!! Pay for education?? Next they'll want to Integrate TOO!!

But having a four year college degree doesn’t guarantee that you have had *any* college level math, physics, English or management study. All a general requirement for a four year college degree shows is that you were a capable enough student to follow a prescribed curriculum to obtain a certificate. If you expect a college degree to show that someone has basic knowledge in subjects relevant to being a professional pilot (like math, physics, English or management) then you need to show that the course of study was applicable.

If you're going to be putting that into federal regulation, the mostly likely way would be to require an aviation degree. You could even make a professional, post-bachelor's degree, like most other professions have, a requirement for an ATP. I'm sure you could get all the aviation colleges to support that sort of regulation without any problem.

However, having received my training somewhere other than an aviation college, I don't see giving Embry Riddle a major boost in students as the best way to helping compensation for pilots and increasing competency of the people in airline cockpits.

Just as I don't think having someone get a BFA in Sculpture or a BA in French Poetry from the University of Montreal would really help either.

(with all due respect to the fine arts and french poetry)

Nothing bothers me more than uninformed posts. Actually, citizenship isn't exactly required to be hired at many European airlines (e.g Lufthansa). Permanent residency is ok, too.

Which means if you meet a nice German girl, get married, and apply for permanent residency in Germany, you too can work for Lufthansa. I hope you've learned something new.

I very much dislike whiners, especially uninformed whiners.

I read your entire post. What did I take out of context? You don't think people should be allowed to fly airplanes commercially in the US unless they are American citizens. There is nothing to twist. Am I wrong? I have no agenda, I just do not agree with you. You sound like the one with an agenda, you want the US government to protect your job from people that are legally allowed to work. Why? Because you don't think you can go work in Europe? I'm just curious, did Nidal Malik Hasan have the same security screening that you had? Yes, we are all so much safer with American pilots. Totally absurd argument to back your opinion. It holds no water whatsoever.

How does 2,000 hours in the pattern flying a 152, 172, Seminole, Dutchess transfer into flying a CRJ, ScareBus or Boeing? I don't see it.

All require positional/situational awareness and basic airman-ship skills. It is so easy to tell the guys who DIDN"T fly all those hours in the pattern: just ask them to fly an old fashioned, not backed-up-with-the-ILS-approach.... especially at night.


From I have read here and heard from other sources, banner towing and skydiving is still legal time, but not always accepted.

It counts toward that first job. I grant that the difference between 500 hours of banners is about the same as 5000, and it may not count as much as flying boxes.


If you buy into a 'academy' type school. Isn't the the goal here, to "train like you fight" for that 121 dream job?

They are selling a product: flight training. So, if I am selling the exact same product as the next guy and charging more, how can I generate customers? By selling this "We train you to be AIRLINE PILOTS!" All most do is make the instructors wear epaulets and ties and retype the checklists to "look just the same as the 121 airlines do."



But the best thing the ATP would do is eliminate those folks who have NO IDEA how to get 1500 hours. And the sweaty, grimy, UNGLAMOROUS jobs (aka. work) required to get those 1500 hours is below most people. Becoming an Airline Pilot will be just too darn hard :(

WINNER

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Lots of folks on here are missing the point on the 4-year degree requirement, whether it's in French or Business or Aviation, a four year degree from a REAL school (i.e. not some UVSC/Online sham of an undergrad program) does two things:

1) Teaches you to think for yourself with reason, based evidence and not emotion
2) Raises a barrier to entry and also indirectly increases age and life experience of all pilots

Most of the people I see letting the company walk over them, accepting additional flying and crappy contract terms, and being unsafe are the same ones without four year degrees and/or little life experience prior to becoming a "professional" aviator. The reason? They can't see the big picture, they can't see through the propaganda and management tactics, and they have never been put through the pressure of expressing an original thought.

I think the piloting profession is at a crossroads with this bill--we will either continue on the course of becoming blue collar gear monkeys and bus drivers to society, or we will raise the barriers to entry and society will gradually begin to respect us as intelligent professionals who can think and talk--not operators, but aviators. Sorry if that sounded corny.

We have to hold ourselves to the same academic, experiential, and professional standards of doctors and lawyers if we ever expect society to pay us the same salaries.

+1!
Now the realist in me is saying how do we do this? I think most would agree the answer goes beyond simply requiring a 4 year degree and ATP. Management is gonna be management and pinch every nickel they can in the process.

Didn't the richest guy in the world drop out of college?

Yes, and I don't think Albert Einstein went to school but taught himself...these people are sophonts in what they do, they are the exception and not the norm.

I think part of the reason people have so much respect for doctors or lawyers is because they know they've had a lot of schooling, and dedicated a lot of time to their profession. They can not take any shortcuts, and generally these professionals are very well spoken. We need higher barriers for entry to 121 carriers; holding an ATP, 23, and 4 year college degree in anything. These 90 day school should be banned by the FAA; all these schools are doing is barley checking the boxes, especially when the president of the school has Designated Examining Authority and just passes students to claim the high success of all their candidates. It's a huge conflict of interest.

Yes it will be harder for people to go from 250hrs-1500hrs. They will have to instruct, part 91 operations, and part 135...but this is what we need for safe pilots to be flying around 50+ people. This will all initially cause a shortage because the public is finding out, and the banks, that pilots make no money. When the airlines don't have pilots to fill the seats in 5-10-15 years, they will be forced to raise their pay and give initial bonuses, just like our nurses today are getting. As this pay goes up to what it should be, people who have their certificates are going to come out of the woodwork, and students will be back to training in high numbers. This will create a lot of flight instructing jobs, and if that still isn't enough to get pilots up to 1500 hours, the airlines will throw these new commercial students in a full motion sim for 1200 hours to get their time up and pay them if they need them.

Some people think all the flying is going to be traded down to the regionals, and we don't like that because the pay is bad, and the schedules are bad...but in the future the pay and schedules will have to change, and then nobody can complain because the regionals will be very simular to what the majors have. Well I guess we will always have something to complain about.

People don't respect or pay doctors and lawyers the way they do because they have a bachelors in whatever subject they happen to have a bachelor's in. They demand that pay and respect because after their bachelors, they attend very rigorous post-bachelor's educational programs, then continue on to rigorous post-academic certification and training. The pilot career field is similar in the respect that we require rigorous training and certification, but Joe Schmo on the street isn't going to respect a pilot any more because he has a four year degree in a random subject. There are too many Joe Schmos who already have random bachelors degrees for that to really elevate the pilot career field to a "profession".

The educational requirements for doctors and lawyers aren't there to create barriers to entry into the career field. They are there because these are knowledge based professions that require that sort of study. The simple truth is that our profession doesn't require that sort of academic training. My high school physics and math classes covered more than what I have needed as a pilot. What makes a good pilot is knowledge of the appropriate regulations (which is not academic type knowledge), and the skills and experience gained from actually flying an airplane.

Yes, making a requirement for a four year degree would raise the bar for entry, and therefore help moderate the oversupply of pilots, but there is simply no justification for making that a federal regulatory requirement. As an airline, I would prefer that my employees have a four degree because it does tend to show the things you mentioned, but as far as federal regulations, requiring a four year degree would have a negligible effect on increasing safety for the flying public. If you want more capable pilots in the cockpit, we need to increase the training and experience requirements for airline pilots, not require a degree in an unrelated field.

True. It should be who's most qualified, not just who has the most money.

FLYJSH hit the nail on the head with this. I agree 100%

I have been finding it hard to believe that guys are actually complaining that 121 carriers might require 1500hr/ATP certificate.

Also, tiresome and pointless, is the argument of "how does flying a C-152 for 1500hrs in the pattern help me fly a CRJ". Indirectly, it sure does. I think people are missing the point. I think the 250hr up to 1500hr time building bridge DOES show what kind of pilot you have been. For example, as a CFI you must show responsibility, good judgment, follow FAR's, be on top of WX&MX, even show up to work on time... etc. Next logical step possibly, maybe to sit SIC in a Chieftain, sitting next to an EXPERIENCED guy who teaches and monitors your progress "in the system" dealing with WX, ATC etc. Once some experience is gained, move to PIC maybe and so on. That brings even more responsibility, judgment yada yada...SO THEN, when the almighty interview comes around, the interviewer has more to "measure you up" as to what kinda pilot you have BEEN and might BE. Did you follow FAR's? Bust any FAR's? Run out of fuel? Take off with ice on the wings? Cut corners with MX items? Constantly call in sick? Get fired from every flying gig ya had? THESE are the things I believe the interviewer is looking at and can be reasonably attained after @ 1500 hours or so-HOWEVER you chose to get from 250 to 1500hrs (CFI, Banner tow, charter etc). These things are not measurable for a guy who walks out of an airline training academy or college program- which only shows that he is trainable-an import factor I do agree. That is why I believe there SHOULD be some kind of minimum set before stepping into a 121 environment. Seems like everybody thinks they are ENTITLED to an airline job-there are NO guarantees. When I was first applying, American Eagle's mins were 3500/1500multi-and that was competitive! Ask around- tis' true! AND if you did get a regional job back then, day one in ground school was filling out bank loan paperwork for your training and even your hotel.

If gaining 1500hrs or an ATP seems like the end of the world to you, you *may* want to switch careers. You need a very thick skin. I have been in 121 for only 10+ years and when I log off here I have to file my unemployment claim AGAIN. I am on my second furlough. Also been through one airline bankruptcy and one bad seniority integration. Saddle up!

You have been in this industry 10 plus years and you are trying to start all over again at Colgan?

THIS is be a beautiful ideal for the profession. Getting a year or so of operational experience in smaller planes sitting next to someone who had been there and done that. Moving over to the right seat and getting some PIC experience before flying planeloads of unsuspecting passengers (while helping bring up a new co-pilot). Perhaps even getting paid more than poverty wages in the process.

The only other thing I would wish is if instructing wasn't an entry level job, but was done with people who had some real flying experience.

Yes, I sure did apply to Colgan. I heard a false rumor they were going to hire SAAB Capt's off the street (already have the type-rating and 2000+PIC in it) Had an interview set up too. But after learning I'd be a SAAB/IAD F/O- I respectfully declined the interview and never went. I currently make more on unemployment so, FOR ME, it wouldn't have worked. Wasn't trying to "start all over again at Colgan" (have a seniority # at a "major")...was maybe trying to keep myself employed as a pilot in these bad times until I am recalled.

Did most regionals, (or commuters as I hear they were referred to) require pay for training back in the 80s/90s?? I am honestly asking.