Regionals - 1 Certificate, 1 Sen List = Safe
 

I think it is great that so much light is being shown on regional airline safety issues.

However, the light has nearly been turned out on the serious issue of fatigue, and duty regulations, and the grave safety implications posed by pilots flying "dead tired."

FAA Administrator Babbitt has said in an obscure printed publication that he did not want the new and revamped regulations to burden airlines bottom lines by requiring them to hire more pilots.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to create a safer flying environment, and comply with any real changes in duty and fatigue regulations without bringing in more certificated pilots. The airlines have been in "skeleton crew" operations mode since deregulation. It needs to stop, and we have the power to stop it now with all the momentum that has been gained in the last year.

The American public is flying on planes that are operated by inexperienced, overworked, and underpaid pilots. Planes will continue to fall out of the sky until the federal government steps in to set a golden standard for all 121 operators to abide by. I say federal government because God knows the managers at Brand X airline sure don't want to spend another dime if the risk calculation allows for it. That's right, airlines operate as cheap as the bean counters project they can without a horrible, terrible, bloody fatal accident. The ONE LEVEL OF SAFETY concept is lost in the substandard pay, and working conditions experienced at regional airlines among ALL employees from ramp service, mechanics, to pilots.

Who is to blame? The management teams at airlines like Continental, American, US Airways, and Delta. Delta let the big cat, the CRJ, out of the bag, and the downward spiral just gets tighter!

They have lied to the American public millions upon millions of times. Every regional airline flight flown under the guise of their ticket selling mainline sugar daddy should be a crime. Joe Q. Public expects a steely eyed skygod at the helm, with his tried and true co-pilot seated to his right. Joe Q. Public gets a couple knuckle heads from a pilot puppy mill who don't know icing from turbulence. These "knuckle heads" wouldn't be such chowder brains if they had the "steely skygod" to mentor them in their formative years at the airlines. They'd become skygods without a hitch under the wing of those who came before them.

It's not like that anymore though. Now there are hitches, well more like total destruction, and mutilated mayhem at the smoldering crash sites where 50-100 of Joe Q. Public lie lifeless because Jonny Moneybags at Brand X Mega Airlines had the bean counters calculate a risk, and saved a bunch of money leading up to the accident. Since he had a regional contractor fly on pennies he isn't responsible for the deaths since they did not occur on his airline's operating certificate. Mr. Moneybags can wash his hands of the blood spilled on his airlines name, because the actual instrument of death was a third party, Super Cheap Little Jet Airlines.

So isn't that a shame? It's a crying shame! If you want one level of safety, you need one seniority list per certificate. A list with everyone having a cumulative experience of about 5 years (THE REGIONALS) vs another list of pilots with a cumulative experience of 25 years (THE MAINLINE LEGACIES). Which airplane would you rather be on? Well, you are Joe Q. Public, unsuspecting, unknowing, victim of a soon to be tragedy similar to Buffalo.

One certificate.
One seniority list.
One level of safety.



Until then, we play a dangerous game in the regional airline business.




Put that in your pipe and smoke it Newsmen!

Good post, agree on all points.

Sounds like communism to me....

One Certificate....One Seniority List....

How about One Health Care System...One Bank...One Car Manufacturer...

Doesn't this go against capitalism?

This coming from the Canadian.....
But seriously apples to oranges here. How would you feel if you went to Bank of America only to find out that Wells Fargo was actually dealing with your money. Or how about if you went to Johns Hopkins Hospital for your heart arrhythmia and afterward you found out you were actually treated by a Med Student doing his residency at a local free clinic with no supervision.

I don't know if you are serious or not. I don't know if i was either.:)

Actually i bank with Wachovia....or is it Wells Fargo? Or is it the federal reserve? Last time i had my eyes checked the nurse did 90% of the tests. THe doctor just looked at the results. Aside from that...I don't think the 1 seniority list would work. Maybe if you implement it today for all people who hold commercial ratings. When they pass their flight test they are given a number and an address where they can send their dues.
I just don't see how this could ever happen.

Noble idea, but it will never happen. We could probably benefit from fewer regional carriers, but your idea will never happen. Instead, why don't you smoke this:

No regionals.
All flying done by mainline.
No sub-par contracts

It has just as much chance of happening as your idea, except this actually benefits the industry.

This post has lots of holes in it.

First of all, airplanes are not falling out of the sky - by a long shot. Accidents are going to happen from time to time no matter what is done. Secondly, until airlines become regulated again, the motivation that underlies the very reason that the airline exists - make money - will be the common theme. It is prudent business practice to try to operate as cheaply as possible, while still delivering the product that is required to stay in business and comply with applicable regulations. Those who own these airlines, whether privately owned or publicly owned, will demand maximum return on their investment.

When was the last smoldering crash? Over a year ago? How many regional airline flights have been operated successfully and safely over the last 13 months? How about before the Colgan accident? How long since the the last smoldering wreck?

Its easy to get wrapped into the pilot "think" and issue such broad generalities as you have without knowing/looking at the forest from above the trees.

Being a regional airline pilot has its drawbacks, for sure. However, the engine continues to pump more and more dreamers into the pools who will do the job for nothing because it beats working for a living, has always been their dream, or whatever other aviation cliche' you have to fill the blank with. The main problem is nothing more than the mixing of basic business motivation with a field that is unique in many ways, one of which is the plethora of pilots willing to work. I don't care who is hiring, how crappy they are, or what the story is, if information surfaces that said company is hiring, you can bet your rear that a surplus of resumes will come in.

From the viewpoint of those who run the airlines (FAA and management) things aren't as bleak as you paint them - smoldering ashes and free falling airplanes. Additionally, tracing the cause of an accident to a human factor is tricky and subjective and is difficult to stick something to, especially when it stands to be regarded as VERY unpopular by everyone on the business end of it.

The fact is, %99.99999999999 of the pilots, the airplanes, and all operations are conducted safely and professionally by those currently sitting in the seats, whether they came from a mill or from SkyGod's hands himself. Every field has its share of neophytes with their hands on the controls (proverbially, depending on the field). It is expected that those who are in supervisory positions (whether an airline captain or a lead surgeon) will watch over their subordinates' performance whenever possible. This doesn't mean that you can throw anybody up there to be "babysat", but experience only comes with experience. There is no escaping that common logistic of life.

As to skeleton crewing, every business does this. EVERY BUSINESS DOES THIS. And all will continue until such time as a law is implemented.

So, we've sort of come full circle now. Its tough to implement a law in the face of such major opposition when the overriding record is one of a nearly gleaming safety record, despite a few hiccups. You might sustain an argument that the customer would advocate this. However, if the costs are passed along, they'll begin to migrate to the airline with the cheapest fare and hence the lowest staffing ratio.

Absent regulation and subsidization from a government that has NO money as it is and is getting closer to financial bust every second, things are looking fairly bleak out there.

OTOH, the passing of a 1,500 hour minimum standard for 121 ops could be a good thing. It likely won't enhance safety much, per the statistics, but can go a long way towards evening out the supply/demand of the pilot workforce right now.

Just a few thoughts...do what you will with them.

One seniority list as in one seniority list per certificate, as in one certificate that sells tickets. I am not for any of this national seniority list kumbayah garbage.

Continental sells tickets for flights flown on Continental airplanes, responsible for all liabilities, operated by pilots on a single Continental airlines seniority list with experience levels varying from 40+ years of aviation to the 5 year neophytes.



Byris,

your post was very short sighted, and completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You can stay at your awesome little regional, I have zero interest in joining you. I would go even as far as saying you are what is wrong with being a professional pilot today. You just don't get it. You seem very content with the delicious fecal sandwich you are being served. Your entire post really amounted to nothing other than a giant waste of bandwith, and my time.

You guys have been conditioned by the countless national seniority list posts to think every thing is about sharing and caring.

What I said was exactly what you just wrote. Your reading comprehension skills fail you, and thus you are just another speed bump I am stuck navigating around on my way to the left seat.

No, my post was about one seniority list at every air carrier, one per every airline certificate, thus allowing for the touted one level of safety.


Lastly, it is no surprise Seafeye automatically thinks the way he does, sending this thread in the wrong direction.


Airline Pilot Central is full of keyboard commandos who are a lot of talk, and very little action. That's also part of the reason we are in the mess we are in. Most of us are represented by a union with no teeth. I have done my part to tear away at the old rotting flesh on my property, I doubt many of you have done the same.

Not really all that serious just saying......
If you bank at Wachovia then your bank has been bought out a few times. But they are not subcontracting their banking out to smaller banks without your knowledge. Secondly the Nurse your talking about it actually called a Nurse practitioner. That person must go through more extensive training and are paid better than a standard RN.

That's fine. We can agree to disagree. What I say is truth as I see it.

However, I don't work for a regional anymore. I looked at the industry for what it is and bailed. Perhaps my viewpoint is biased in that direction, I'll concede that. I chose not to eat the "fecal sandwich" as you so aptly call it.

But many pilots talk the same talk, but all that we've managed do over the last 10+ years is to sink deeper into the mire. So, something bigger must be at work here.

Enjoy playing your Xbox360 for a living.

Cool, then this is your hobby, and you like to stir the pot and be taken seriously as if you have a clue anymore. You do not have a vested interest in being a professional pilot clearly so you just rant and rave about what you think is right.

It's hard to argue with someone who is so irrational as to spend so much money becoming a professional pilot only to throw it all away after a short period of time. You didn't even make captain at a regional and you quit! Obviously you didn't have the slightest inkling of what you were getting yourself into.

Gotcha. Alrighty then.

Actually my first post was filled with beer and sarcasm.
You (Too Beaucoup) may actually be interested in safety, if that was your intent with the first post, and that's great. All airlines preach it.
But how many CEO's practice what they preach?
We would all only fly 5 hours a day. 3 days a week if it was economicaly viable. But it isn't so we have FAR's that have us legally working for 16hrs. OK our contract says 15. I have gone up to 15 hours, 4 times last year. It isn't safe. But it's legal. And that is all that the airlines care about.
One seniority list would be more expensive so it isn't going to happen.

Actually - I learned to fly for the fun of it. My training was always sourced in a deep personal love for aviation. Whether I sit in a jet on someone else's terms for a career or do something else and fly for fun has no bearing on whether I feel I got my money's worth.

Additionally, I started flying in 1998 at 16 years old. I spread the costs over a matter of 8 or 9 years and came out the end debt free with parallel training in another field (recommended to me at the time by pilots galore). My go at the airlines was begun with eyes wide open, skeptical the whole time from what I had heard from others in it.

I did it until I had a furlough notice in one hand and a displacement notice in the other and decided that getting displaced for 2 months only to get kicked on the street wasn't in my best interest. I chose to grab the reigns myself and go a different direction.

Do I miss it? Yes. In some ways. I did have the time of my life, made lots of friends, etc. Much of it sucked too. I felt and still feel all of what you described in your original post and completely agree with the fact that the current state of affairs is VERY subpar. However, based on direct observation and a fairly learned understanding of business affairs, it appears to me that this industry isn't headed where we want it to go and I honestly think that once one pulls out of the rat race, the viewpoint shifts to, perhaps, a more holistic view of the situation, rather than the pilot centrist view only (a valid view, but one of many different views that affect the path of things).

Except some of the money that should be going to pay higher interest rates or dividends ARE being paid in interest/fees to the smaller,local banks for overnight loans so that the big banks can make their FDIC min cash requirement....I think :D

You should do your homework before posting. This idea was actually first brought to the floor back in 1996, but it wasn't driven by safety, but rather bargaining power and economics. Ironically, it was rejected then by the same pilot group that now wants it because they are witnessing the demise of what was then a great airline.

You wanna talk about safety? How about we start with the baseline? How about we start with the agency tasked with enforcing the standards? You see, all naive one, you could have one seniority list industry-wide, or airline-wide, but if there's no element of corporate accountability, then safety won't improve. Colgan 3407 didn't happen because of two pilots, it happened because of the lack of safety culture at Colgan, and the FAA simply looked the other way. If you would just stop letting your ego speak for you, and take the time to see that we operate in a heavily regulated industry without an element of enforcement at the corporate level, then maybe just maybe you would see that you're trying to address the symptom and not the disease.

If you need anymore reference material here are couple of links for you:

FAA inspectors: Southwest tried to hide safety problems - CNN.com

FRONTLINE: flying cheap: watch the full program | PBS

goaround

It really doesn't surprise me that the idea has been brought to the "floor" before. I did not claim it as original.

Well at least this unnamed pilot group is finally catching on! I wasn't around when my generation was sold out for a few bucks!

By the way, which airline are you talking about? This subject is not airline specific in the slightest.

What about the FAA? They are in bed with the airlines? Yes obviously, and this is no surprise to anyone. Your wording is very vague, sorry if I am not "reading" you.

There would be corporate accountability if the "corporate" folks were liable for every airplane, pilot, and flight that was operated. The way to do this is regulation. By regulation I mean require a company selling tickets for a "ride" on their certificate using their name, disallowing other companies to do business as, and using pilots trained by said company, on a single seniority list as to not allow for a lack of training, or transfer of knowledge through experience in the cockpit with seasoned pilots.

My original post really wasn't about dissecting why Colgan crashed an airplane, but since you want to go there.. Colgan hired a guy who pulled back on the controls, and every pilot who was involved in checking, and instructing this individual could share just as much blame as Colgan the company or the FAA for looking the other way. It is quite obvious some pilots in a position to prevent an accident and encourage a safer operation LOOKED THE OTHER WAY when it came to this particular captain.

There is no question that safety isn't taken that seriously at Colgan. It may have never been an issue had Continental not been able to outsource flying to a contractor, obviously.



You're the one posting a bunch of non-sense about how you want to see enforcement at the corporate level at the same time as stating the obvious that we operate in a heavily regulated business. Airlines get fined all the time. What more do you want? Would you like people to be arrested? Banished from aviation? Do you want to write people tickets with a little ticket book? Go start a THERE MUST BE ENFORCEMENT AT THE CORPORATE LEVEL thread.

The disease is pitting pilots against pilots, and disrupting the flow of knowledge, and experience between generations of pilots because of large gaps in levels of experience at the regionals and the major/legacies.

The solution is getting everyone at a particular operation under the same tent. No it isn't going to be easy, in fact it may not even be possible considering folks like you are in the way. Someday though, it may happen, but until then we are stuck with what we have been left with by those who came before us.

You wrote a two page referendum, trying to make it sound like you discovered the answer to the industry's safety problems without knowing the background, clearly speaks to your credibility or lack thereof.

No they're doing it out of self-interest, no regard for safety. You should do a little research on the subject.

No, once again you're wrong; you're wrongly assuming that safety is directly related to the level of experience. While experience is an important element in the equation, training and safety culture are the key ingredients; both which are driven by corporate culture.

In other words (I'll make it easy for you since you can't grasp it), if you don't have corporate accountability for the safety culture and training at any carrier, it won't matter how much experience you bring to the table.

So like Mr Cohen from the RAA, you blame the pilots for this accident, and dismiss the fact that the absence of a safety culture at Colgan led to the accident itself...WOW! You must be a college student playing X-BOX, because even a private pilot can read an accident report and connect the dots. The bigger problem though, is that the feds knew all along and they looked the other way, which clearly illustrates the point that a single list won't have as much impact into safety, if you don't have regulatory compliance and enforcement at the corporate level. This whole concept is encapsulated by Safety Management Systems (SMS), I suggest you do a little reading into it, because a single seniority list won't fix the problem, but SMS might if it's done correctly.


Clearly the whole concept is above your head. You shouldn't start threads if you can't accept different points of view. It really strikes to your credibility or lack thereof.

The ICAO organization has identified corporate culture as the disease, hence it has imposed a deadline for all carriers around the world to comply with SMS by 2012. I tend to take the folks who manage and measure safety a lot more serious than an anonymous poster who is probably just a college kid with a private license pretending to know what his talking about.

Single seniority list in any shape or form is a bargaining tool, not the holy grail of safety.