NTSB Recommends monitoring voice recorders
 

This is one recommendation I actually hope the FAA ignores, and I'm sure they probably would have, but now with all the media spotlight on this accident, it won't be so easy. Better not talk about the chief pilot while the tapes are rolling anymore...

NTSB asks to monitor pilots' talk in cockpits
By Alan Levin, USA TODAY

Government investigators are making an unprecedented push to use "black box" voice recordings to routinely monitor pilots' conversations and make sure cockpit crews are focusing on their jobs.
The move represents the first time that workplace monitoring could extend into the nation's cockpits and has drawn intense fire from pilots' unions who say that the plan is intrusive. The black box recorders have until now only been used in accident investigation.
The recommendation by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) comes amid a string of serious distractions during flight, including the fatal crash near Buffalo after two pilots chit-chatted in the cockpit and two Northwest Airlines pilots who flew 100 miles past their destination because they were using their personal laptops.
"It is essential to understand what is going on in the cockpit if we are to achieve further reductions" in accident rates, NTSB Chairwoman Debbie Hersman said in a written statement to USA TODAY.

FLYING: Add 'pilot' to the list of jobs that aren't so great
BUFFALO CRASH: NTSB blames pilots
AIRLINES: Crash puts focus on big, small carrier ties

The NTSB has no regulatory power but it has recommended the black box idea to the Federal Aviation Administration. The recommendation calls for airlines and unions to monitor the recordings as a way to watchdog the workplace.

Investigators say the effort is part of a broader trend to reduce misbehavior and inattention by transportation workers in the age of instant messaging and cellphones. But some worry that the proposal could undermine other safety efforts by sowing distrust among pilots.
"It's an intrusion on privacy," said Mike Michaelis, chairman of safety at the Allied Pilots Association, the American Airlines union. "It's the wrong way to go safety-wise."
The agency said that the recommendation isn't intended to violate privacy. It suggested that the recordings be scrutinized for safety trends. The reviews should be done anonymously and could not be used to punish individual pilots, the agency said.
"This is not a case of Big Brother spying on pilots," NTSB board member Robert Sumwalt said.
NTSB board members said their recommendation was prompted by the Feb. 12, 2009, crash near Buffalo that killed 50 people. The pilots' chit-chatting was a violation of federal regulations and came before they mishandled a warning and lost control.
Regional airlines endorsed the concept of using the cockpit voice recorder as an auditing tool after the Buffalo crash. Support has also come from powerful members of Congress.
"This is the next frontier of safety that we must not put off," Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., the chairman of the Transportation Committee, said at a recent hearing.
Pilots have been wary of the crash-hardened recorders since they were introduced in 1967. Currently, accident investigators are the only ones who listen to the recordings. The NTSB releases a transcript of the recording but never makes the recording itself public.
Capt. John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association union, said reviewing the recorders could make pilots uneasy about speaking up about safety issues in the cockpit.
Bill Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation, said he would prefer to see other safety initiatives before cockpit recordings are monitored.
The recorders capture conversations and background noises in the cockpit. As of April 7, 2012, they must record the last two hours of a flight; previously, the devices only recorded 30 minutes.

Here is the link in case it didn't copy over entirely. I didn't read it after I pasted it on here.

NTSB asks to monitor pilots' talk in cockpits - USATODAY.com

well, if you follow the sop then you've got nothing to worry about.

Does that mean that the AMA will start recording the conversations that surgeons have during open heart surgery?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone recommended getting rid of the sterile cockpit rule and just not allowing any unnecessary conversations during the entire flight. They could justify it with the Northwest flight. "If they were not talking to each other, the probably would have not overflown MSP." :rolleyes: That would make a 5 hour flight across the country pretty f`en boring.

I'd like to call for an open line monitoring congress just to keep them honest! That is a fair request.:)

We will just have to start writing notes to eachother on the back of the TOLD cards.

Lame.

Isn't that what CSPN is for? :D

And random alchohol and drug testing!

Isn't that what CSPN is for?

Somewhat. I want to listen to what goes on behind closed doors just like what they want from us!!;)

Let's be honest with ourselves here. Nobody is perfect, I'm sure everybody has broken sterile cockpit. If they say they haven't, they are lying. This sets a dangerous precedent. If this actually happens, it's another tool for management. You **** off the wrong people, and this is a way for them to get to you. Not only to fire you, but to go a step further and pursue certificate action. Just wait, it's going to get ugly.

Don't forget our hero "Sully" broke sterile cockpit regulations. Around 2,000 feet he admired the Hudson river. Something ironic about that one...

While this could possibly become a labor-control tool for some managers, there is a big downside for airlines....

"Position and Hold 35"

"Uuh, we just got that nuisance message again"

"We know what it is. Are you OK with writing it up when we get back to base?"

"Yeah, sure. Otherwise we'll lose our flow time, and be here for another hour... or longer if they have to get Mx out here. Everybody will miss their connections"

"Ooops, I forgot they just started that CVR monitoring program. Tell tower we need to exit and return to gate"

Agreed, Rick. The Law of Unintended Consequences. If it isn't a CVR CB constantly popping, then it will be every little nuisance warning, caution or sound that will require a RTG for a maintenance check since pilots can no longer be sure about who is watching.

I'm not saying any pilot is doing anything unsafe. It's simply that "the rules" are often written for the lowest common denominator or as a catchall. If a pilot is certain that an action is safe, then they will do it even though they wouldn't do so if there was a Fed in the jump seat.

If this passes, then we'll all be flying with a "Fed in the jumpseat" every flight. That'll be fine with me. I get paid 100% per my contract. http://forums.eaglelounge.com/images/smilies/usa2.gif

They have wi-fi on some flights now. We can just IM each other on our laptops!

Once again the government is not going to the root of the problem. Talking below 10,000 ft does very little to effect the safety of flight. We all know that. To imply otherwise is BS. We do this job day after day, leg after leg to the point where we retract the flaps without thinking about it. I often call for gear up & don't even remember doing so. The Colgan accident wasn't not caused by breaking sterile. They'll put in the report, but it's BS & we know it. The Colgan accident was caused by a lack of airmanship, period. A chain of events lead to the fatal & tragic ending, but talking below 10,000 didn't do squat. As a matter of fact, talkig about ice on the airplane ISNT EVEN breaking sterile. It's DIRECTLY related to the safety of flight & ABSOLUTELY SHOULD be discussed.

The government is once again trying to fix something that ISN'T broke. Fix the work rules! Fix the rest rules! Fix the worthless, pointless RLA!! Fix the crooks that are management of many airlines!!! FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!!!! STOP WASTING OUR TIME!!!!!! :mad: :mad:

Rant over.

Ha! They can shove CVR-monitoring up their you-know-what. I will NEVER fly under that precedent. EVER.

Guys, you are looking at this all wrong..... You should have FUN with it!

Say things like "Oh Expletive" and "Sound similar to yawn". Or, at random moments, make barnyard sounds.

Give the transcriber something to chew on.

Since it is coming from the NTSB, I tend to disagree that it isn't a problem. However, like you, I also think there are much more serious problems that need to be addressed first in order to improve airline safety. I also think most of this is typical political knee-jerking to show the public "Your government is hard at work fixing the problems!"

once airlines begin canceling flights due to the "passenger bill of rights", this will be put in the back burner and be forgotten!

I agree with the previous post, FIX THE PROBLEM that is MANAGEMENT, REST, and WORK RULES....

Awesome. Made my day.

count me in!

From another forum: "Since the govt. is recommending this to make sure we're doing our job, I say they put a voice recorder into every office of a politician... Including the president."

Cleared to start check please meow....
papers..............on board meow
doors.................closed meow
anti skid test.........complete meow

+1. The arguement is that we're in a safety sensitive position charged with the lives of between 19 and 400 passengers at a time... Congress and the President are charged with the lives of what.. 300 million give or take... You want to record me for safety? I think we should be recording YOU for safety. I agree that it might make guys fly like a fed's on board, not sure if that's good or bad but can you imagine what a similar program would do to politics?

I'd be willing to forgo the office voice recorders if they were subjected to random drug and alcohol testing plus had to pass a vote of confidence test by their constituents every six months.

I think one could make a good argument about an increase in pilots falling asleep if an all sterile flight rule were created.

Theoretically, this would be in place to prevent pilots from talking too much. What it will really do is push pilots to talk TOO LITTLE.........which can be just as dangerous. Effective communication is critical and this will stifle that very requirement for safe operation of aircraft.

If my conversations and comments are going to be monitored, I'll give them what they want and be the quietest pilot out there. Unfortunately, I'd be better and safer if I could speak freely.

This will be another example of something that sounds good on paper, but results in as many new problems as old ones supposedly solved.

Idiots.

I used to bang my feet in the rudder pedal wells on final sometimes. I knew IF there was an accident they would NEVER figure out the banging. Silly yes. But fun...

I like to make jokes and do impressions on trips. I get bored sometimes and try to entertain myself/my Captain. I hope the transcripts would read something like..

[Herbert the Pervert voice] Do you like popsicles?
[Hank Hill voice] D@#nit, Bobby!
[Ladies' Man voice] Would you like a fish sandwich?

I got more...

....Do you like movies with Gladiators in them ?

I started in on this line of questioning once with one of my female flight instructors. I didn't realize it but she had never seen the movie. Needless to say, when I got to the "Have you ever seen a grown man naked?" question I got a very strange look. haha

Simple fix to this issue. After every flight... Parking brake -set, CVR erase buttom- push and hold for 5 seconds. Shutdown checklist complete.

Does the CVR erase button really work? I always looked at it like the "Panic" button you can put on a computer keyboard; looks good, does nothing.

This is pretty stupid. Do they really think they'll catch something if they'll pass this? No more talks of applying to Fedex on final approach. It would be a very long and boring surveillance session for the chief pilots. How about they treat pilots professionally and they'll behave accordingly.

Yes, but if someone really, really wants to find out, the information can be recovered just like off an erased cassette tape or magnetic or digital computer memory storage. I doubt an airline or someone would casually go through the expense, but an NTSB accident investigation team would.

If this plan goes through, that button may indeed be disconnected.

It was my understanding the erase feature DOES NOT erase the last 30 minutes.

Rex is a boy dog!

I can't believe they want to do this. I'm reading a new booked called 'complications' and in this one chapter the writer(a surgeon) was in the OR talking(Q&A stuff with non-procedural stuff) in length with another doctor performing surgery. I'm not sure if they record their surgeries but in any case the doctor didn't mess up at all. This doctor and his colleague's have an incident rate around 1% with hundred(maybe thousands) of surgeries. I know both of the two jobs deal with technical information and procedures but isn't surgery a little just a little bit harder and they are allowed to talk.

More like: "Give me the can lets defer it"

Is this a specific airline thing or does it have to do with knowing the procedure for erasing (e.g., on ground, parking brake set)?