Wow, you're so naiive! Don't you know Senators have staff to open and toss their mail for them!

[/snark]

In all seriousness, a lot of folks in Washington see that a storm is brewing in November. It has the potential to impact the Democrats most, but in reality it's pretty much an anti-incumbent storm. You can bet these folks are paying more attention to their mail than they've paid in a while. Being a congresscritter is a pretty good life and few want to give it up.

Alright. What have YOU done to UNITE people? Instead of getting on here and criticizing people for their efforts (excellent ones, I believe), what do YOU suggest that we do instead of writing senators and forming groups on social networking sites?

Let's hear your brilliant suggestions.

He says he's the leader of some secret society that knows a secret we dont know....guess we'll {(effin contractions):p sorry inside joke} just have to see what he has to offer...;) If you want the inside joke read this thread gem...http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...nt-living.html

ALPA Voices Adamant Opposition to Cockpit Voice Recorder Monitoring
ALPA Members Can Help

March 2, 2010 - ALPA this week voiced its intense opposition to proposals to monitor cockpit voice recorders to the traveling public, federal regulators, and Capitol Hill.

In a USA Today “Opposing View” opinion piece, Capt. John Prater made it clear that monitoring conversations in the cockpit for any reason other than accident investigation would fail to produce accurate safety information. Prater also expressed the serious concern that monitoring would suppress pilot communications and jeopardize the information and resources that make proven proactive nonpunitive safety reporting programs successful in preventing accidents.

On February 26, ALPA issued a news release expressing staunch opposition to legislation introduced by Sen. Jim DeMint that would misuse cockpit voice and flight data recorder information for discipline. “The DeMint proposal will threaten aviation safety, compromise the accident investigation process, and squander financial resources that could make proven aviation safety programs even more effective,” said Prater. “We will use every tool at our disposal to prevent this from becoming law.”

ALPA members are strongly encouraged to contact their U.S. senators through the Association’s new Call to Action to express opposition to this misguided monitoring proposal. Click here to take action now! Please make your voice heard today!

I asked friends to write and oppose this bill. One asked me to explain why whistle blower laws wont protect us. She asked this so she could form a more convincing letter. Any thoughts on how we should respond when people claim whistle blower laws would protect us? I don't want CVR's monitored but I want as much ammo as I can to fight this.

Here is a nice template:
The Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations

S. 3048 specifically sets aside all other laws that would prohibit management from using CVR and FDR data against you. It also specifically invalidates any contractual language which would prohibit management from using that data either.

So state or federal wiretapping laws would also be void in the cockpit. Hows that for a talking point? - Mobsters, Murderers, and Child Predators have more rights than Pilots do!

I think their may be alot of pulled CVR circuit breakers, then let the SOBs try to figure out what happened.

Thanks for the links, guys.

The bill provides for pretty severe penalties if you get caught. I can't remember where it is in there, but some jail time and multiple thousands of dollars. I think a gap in the time from one flight to another one would tell whoever is listening that the CB was pulled. It needs to be fought in Congress, not in the cockpit.

We need to make up a language and talk to each other in our new, made up language. Or just get wifi and IM each other. Or better yet, a nationwide strike.

if this goes thru, everyone just walk off the job - screw them all. period.

I wish we had the solidarity as an industry as a whole to do that.

Contacting Your Congressman
 

It is easy to contact your Congressman or Senator.

Visit this website

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

or this one

Contact Elected Officials: USA.gov

and just do a little digging and send them your thoughts.

Jeffrey

I am going to start by saying i do not want this bill to pass.
But would like to point out how funny it is reading a couple peoples post here that are against this one but for the ATP to be an FO bill. They are for that one because it should help safety in keeping low time pilots out of the right seat. Ok i see that argument they are about safety but then i come here and that same person says dont pass this bill. But this bill could (might) improve safety because we would all have to follow the sterile cockpit rule. (which i know we all do already) It is funny that some safety stuff is ok but not all. In my opinion it is because we are not picking sides just because of safety the other bill has a chance to create a barrier of entry thus cutting supply of pilots good for pilots paycheck (theoretically) this bill invades our privacy on the flight deck so now pilots are against it even though it will make us fly by the book. If you are not doing anything wrong you would have nothing to fear with this bill. I am just pointing this out i am not trying to make this flamebait i just want you guys to fess up that are hiding behind that your opinion is purely because of safety because a lot of it is not.

Once again i am along with my other pilots on whether i want these passed or not. I dont want this one because i am not a child and i dont think we need to have someone over our shoulder. Nothing to do with safety the other bill i want passed because yes it should help safety but it will also lower my competition for my next job. I am able to admit it, can you?

If we want to improve safety we need to change the culture of flying/management. Regionals get paid to complete a flight dont you think that will make our companies put pressure to get the flight out. then we are also pressured to be on time. The list goes on and on.

If the CVR reviews were to ONLY be used for safety purposes then I would agree with you. It seems to me that many argue on this forum that it would be a tool that could be (would be?) abused by management. For some reason management gets a hair up its craw against tom14cat14 and decides that s/he isn't being a team player. They decide to pull the last 10 flights and finds one instance, maybe even out of context, where tom14cat14 broke sterile and uses that as an excuse to fire him/her. Is that improving safety?
Is anyone out there in the aviation industry against the anonymous safety programs?

USMCFLYR

I do agree it is a bad thing to have i just hate how so many people are saying this is purely bad because it hurts safety. To me that is not the only reason most of us do not want it. I agree it can hurt safety because management would use it against us but i think another big reason we do not want it is because we want to be able to talk about whatever we want and not worry about management here everything we say. I guess we could twist it even more for safety because we all will be falling asleep because no one will talk during cruise about personal things so management cant use it against us.

If anyone thinks this is about sterile cockpit....guess again. I agree, a level of professionalism is needed....and all rules/regs must be followed. But, I just have one word for you:

Tenerife

On March 27, 1977 two 747's collided on the runway at Tenerife. It was between Pan Am and KLM. The KLM was Captained by a very Senior Captain. He had two junior officers with him serving as FO and SO. The Captain initiated a takeoff role without clearance. The FO spoke up and the Captain aborted the takeoff. While the FO was obtaining a ROUTE clearance (not a takeoff clearance), the Captain again initiated a takeoff role and the rest is history....over 580 dead. The FO did not dare to question the Senior Captain twice! It cost him his life and 582 others their life.

This is not the only time an accident has happened because of a crewmember not speaking up! After Tenerife...we saw a dramatic shift towrds CRM. CRM was Cemented with the accident of a United DC-10 in Souix City a decade later, on July 19, 1989, where the Captain saved 184 lives by using CRM.

CRM WORKS! And it works because of the freedom to communicate (as a crew) in the cockpit.

If this law passes, we are going back to the pre-CRM days. It will only be a matter of time before an accident happens. And then another...and then another.

And it is too bad that this is happening because one Senetor wants to "bust" airline unions. Pro or con...this is not the right way to solve any of our problems.

This law will not make sure people adhere to a sterile cockpit....or fall asleep in the cockpit.....it is about someone fearing to open his/her mouth when something looks wrong....because somebody may get in trouble from management (if they decide to review the recorder). Having people second guess saying something will lead to disaster....history will repeat itself!

You are missing the point. The CVR was sold to the airlines, the pilots and the public as a way to assist in accident investigations. The holdup to it in the first place was the arguement that at some point somebody woudl want to listen to them at times other than accidents under the guise of improving safety. These things were all discussed at the original implemntation, and everybody who wanted them firmly stated they would never be used in any capacity other than post accident investigations. Otherwise these things would never have made it into the cockpit.

Now, zip forward a few decades and now they want to use them to anonymously check for compliance and safety issues...

zip forward a few decades and they will want to listen to them to determine which pilots have poor attitudes which could pose a threat to safety.

Think that's an exageration? I'm sure if you asked the average citizen 45 years ago is Gays would be getting married they'd call you nuts. It's the principle of taking one small baby step at a time instead of draconian changes... eventually it will happen. The only way to stop this type of thing is to draw the line right away, and never ever give an inch.

We have told them how to improve safety. Stop the pilot pushing, stop scheduling reduced rest, have a sufficiant enough number of reserves, stop punishing pilots with loss of pay for removing themselves when fatigued....

instead, we're going to increase police style actions and basically say the beatings will continue until moral improves.

This bill specifically allows companies to punish pilots over what is heard over the CVR. I would put money on my company instantly using the CVR to get rid of a few guys that they see as "troublemakers". This will set the cockpit back decades. This will cause crashes. There seems to be no merit on what the company can get you for. Breaking sterile is the least of my concerns. Its super easy to not break sterile. What I'm worried about is getting monday monring quarterbacked over all of my decisions. Why did I go right around that cell when they think I should of gone left. Opps I missed a 1000 ft call now I'm non SOP... Think this is crazy talk?? Companies will take it this far to get rid of guys.

Mason -

Since I am agreeing with you - exactly HOW am I missing the point?
CVRs and FDRs and ASAP programs DO increase safety, mishap investigation, and training. They SHOULD NOT be used as a tool for management to abuse pilots and threaten jobs over. I think you just like to disagree with people, but this time you words are falling short BECAUSE I AM AGREEING WITH YOU! I don't know - maybe you hit the wrong button and meant to quote someone else. If these devices and this information was ONLY to be used in a safety enhancement related manner with no course for retribution I seriously doubt anybody would have a problem with it - or at least they shouldn't. I also come from a flying community where every little communication is poured over and the tapes are watched ad-naseum - and yes I can (could have) gotten in trouble by someone for breaking SOPs or 3710.

Maybe that is your beef with my statement now that I read your again. Do you NOT think that a review of CVR tapes or FDR data can be useful in safety? They should be used for those things I mention and not as some type of leverage in the workplace.

USMCFLYR

You'll have to forgive him. He's just another hothead whose career isn't going as planned so he lashes out at other pilots.

This is what i got from Senator Kohl (D) of Wisconsin.

Dear Mr. xxxxxxxxx:

Thank you for writing me with your concerns about the use of black boxes for pilot monitoring. I appreciate hearing from you.

As you know, Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) introduced the Pilot Professionalism Assurance Act, S. 3048. This bill would allow air carriers to use information from a cockpit voice recorder (CVR) or flight data recorder for any purpose relating to improving the safety and well being of passengers, including the evaluation or discipline of pilots or flight engineers. S. 3048 requires air carriers to keep information from a CVR confidential and only allows disclosure of the information as required for an administrative or judicial proceeding. Additionally, the Pilot Professionalism Assurance Act would prohibit the tampering or disabling of any CVR. S. 3048 has been referred to the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee, of which I am not a member.

I believe it is of the utmost importance that we protect the traveling public. I know the vast majority of pilots are dedicated to that goal and work hard to abide by existing regulations and to meet the needs of the people they fly. I understand your concerns with the potential harm that company use of CVRs and will keep this in mind during consideration of the FAA reauthorization bill or S. 3048.

Again, thank you for your letter.


But wait, if the other bill gets passed with pria on steroids, then your company file is made public to future employers. Hence, what you said is not confidential. How again does this help safety?

I received an email today from one of my senators. Apparently they didn't really read it since it was on the CVRs and NOT health care reform.

__________________________________________________ _________

Thank you for contacting my office regarding health care reform.


I appreciate your taking the time to share your views with me, and I understand the deep concerns that Virginians have on both sides of this important debate. In the event that further health care reform legislation comes before the full Senate, I will continue to be guided by the principles I set forth at the beginning of this debate. I support meaningful, fiscally-responsible, and effective health care reform that contains costs, expands access to health care, protects Medicare, and reforms the market for health insurance. I am particularly concerned that we protect Americans with pre-existing medical conditions and foster increased competition among carriers. Significant deviations from these core principles would lead me to withhold my support.

As the health care reform debate continues, please be assured that your views will be very helpful to me and my staff. I hope that you will continue to share your thoughts with us in the years ahead.


Thank you again for your interest in this important matter.


Sincerely,




Jim Webb
United States Senator

I kinda hope it passes. Since we can't seem to agree on anything else, maybe we can all agree we'll be emotionally unfit to fly.

Letter sent. Don't know if it will do any good but they have it.

Passed in Senate.

Source? It hasn't even gotten out of committee yet.

Confusing this bill with the FAA Re-Authorization Act?

USMCFLYR

I wrote my Senator about the DeMint bill and he wrote me back about the FAA Reauthorization Act.

I wrote mine. I hope to hell that this thing does not pass.

At least yours answered, there is a certain Senator in Florida, that doesnt even want to be bothered with responding..:rolleyes:

Ladies and Gents, sorry to pop your bubble of hope, but if the general public, AKA the government, thinks it will improve the overall safety of air transportation, guess what is going to happen?

^^Sad, but likely true :(

Problem is: It's not gonna improve saftey one iota! Just the opposite.

Agreed,

However,
There seems to be a prevailing disposition, it is almost a mob clamoring, in that public opinion, always goes along with whatever sounds like a solution. This is a major problem for us as a society as a whole. While now that it might be apparent, that your presently respected privacy and actions, recorded on a CVR, may now be instrumental toward something not good happening to you, is of no consequence. Why is that? It is because we let this stuff happen by always being the "good pilot" with his mouth shut, and his eyes open, always keeping a low profile, staying below the radar of management and out of trouble.

The way I see it is that we as a group should be more opinionated, and on occasion, take a stand, on our own, without ALPA, but that is just too riskaay for most of us, is it not?

Yet Colgan still gets to fly under Continental's code share, and business is as usual when it comes sweat shop regional tactics, so they can make the big Money. The FAA still continues to be wooed by lobbyists.

mine too :rolleyes: I quickly responded with, Thats great and all but i wrote you about Demints bill not reworking our ATC system....:cool:

What if?
 

Check out the image recorders the NTSB wants: Aviation Issues

I took a few aircraft accident investigation classes at Riddle and they said this was the "future" especially for general aviation. I know when CVR's were first put into place, all the pilots threw a fit because it was looked at as spying but they were promised it would only be used for accident investigations. Jerry Lederer, the Grandfather of Aviation safety was instrumental in the inaction of the FDR, and yet again pilots were opposed. Then FOQA comes along and you guys get further scrutinized. Seems like if you even farted in a sterile cockpit someone would flip out. ASRS is an amazing safety tool and works for one reason: confidentiality. I love aviation safety and the practice of it but allowing companies to spy on you will do nothing for safety only distrust. Ridiculous Ridiculous Ridiculous.

"Corporate culture has a very real influence on the attitudes and performance of the people within an organization there is no question in my mind that management decisions and actions, or more frequently, indecision's and inaction's, cause accidents." -John Lauber, NTSB

it sounded like, from what i had heard, that the proposal did not get attached to the bill that passed on monday...but i could be wrong.