Mainline/Regional Scope
 

A good article on the future of mainline/regional scope:

Will US mainline pilots cede more ground to regional airlines?

winglet

p.s. I don't agree with many of the conclusions in this article, but the author makes some valid points. There is also some good data and information regarding how anti-labor experts think. Knowledge is power!

An excellent article by someone who really did his homework. "Scope liberalization to wrest gain for mainline pilots." He also pointed out that regional pilot pay was sacrificed to cross subsidize mainline pilot pay and benefits. A classic example is UAL. Before bankruptcy, I knew one UAL B747 CA who was making over $330,000 a year flying maybe one trip every other month. During the same time period, a regional pilot first year pay was less than $17/hr.

Current structure as it exists is unhealthy and has produced an unintended consequences for mainline pilots. I believe only way we can regain some semblance of honor and respect in this industry is to stop giving up scope and negotiate with the management for pilot integration for all branded flying. With the gap between the regional flying cost and that of mainline flying narrowing, mainline carriers needs to carve out a different path for domestic flying, and it would be in the best interest of current pilots to negotiate for total integration of branded flying under one list. A good example is Lufthansa. All Lufthansa pilots are under one seniority list regardless of whether you fly a CRJ900 or a B777.

YouTube - Hitler gets angry with pilots for flying over airport This should stop you worrying about scope and get a good laugh!! enjoy... AA and Cal. will hopefully hold on to scope for dear life and not follow Ual, US and Dal.

HaHaHa. This is really hilarious. We should show this during recurrent training!;)

There you go. He hit the nail on the head.

It kinda makes one wonder if Mainline will negotiate rates for "regional" aircraft types. I think this would be a good move in the right direction.

Swelbar's thoughts are written out in their entirety in the "scope scope scope" thread in the majors forum. In the first couple of pages, I believe. Read that and my post disecting it before you jump to conclusions that this guy is on anything but managements side. This guy also is close friends with Glenn Tilton. That should tell you where his loyalties lie.

It's one thing for a legacy airline/legacy NC to negotiate a "regional" rate into their CBA or an LOA.

It's an ENTIRELY different thing to have said airline acquire those "regional" aircraft so they can be flown by said legacy pilots.

No doubt. He wrote that pilots must accept lower payrates, benefits and work rules for domestic flying with which I TOTALLY disagree.

Having said that he does bring out some accurate points regarding circumstances that led to our current demise of pilot profession.

He's on the investor's side which happens to be management's side too. I'm against the degradation of pay, benefits and work rules too, but that's part of the problem when thousands of pilot are competing with each other for jobs. The solution from the mainline pilots is for all the regional pilots to quit and find office jobs. Not only will this not work because not too many pilots are going to give up their jobs for you, but even if they did, there'd be a few thousand more standing in line to take over.

Thanks for being honest and agreeing with me about the accurate points. This is exactly what I meant.

The biggest thing the author misses as that, with the last round of scope concessions through 1113c the mid part of the 2000's, it finally screwed enough mainline pilots to where it is a hot button issue.

Too many mainline guys have gotten their careers totally jacked by giving up scope (or have gotten their flight time flying RJ's and saw the horrendous erosion and its effects...not to mention seriously lengthening our ability to upgrade or even get hired)... thus scope is no longer something that is negotiable. Taking it back is closer to the table than giving it up, for sure.

For me, I have zero issues whatsoever with shutting widgetland down over one more seat, one more pound, or one more plane....

What in the @#$%&*?!?

Yep, capitalism is perfect!:rolleyes:

This is not true, at least not a couple years ago. The so-called RJs are flown by Lufthansa CityLine or some such entity. Their pilots are hired as a sort of Lufthansa Lite and if they wish to go to the mainline they will have to go to a more thorough screening (selektion as it is called there) and many will not be allowed to transfer. But it's not really more thorough. It's a bit like a fraternity and if they like you you'll pass and if they don't you won't.

CRJ/ERJ pilots in Europe are treated as an even lower form of pond scum by their mainline counterparts than they are in the US. I worked over there for a number of years, which is how I know this.

Even if this were true, it doesn't justify US mainline pilots treating their regional counterparts as pond scum. It makes the mainline pilots feel better to **** all over their regional pilots, but this action only works against them since the regional pilots now have no reason to cooperate with them.

Delta already has. We'll never see the planes, though. That ship has sailed. I'm praying that DALPA doesn't cave on scope further than we already have.

You are correct. I am generally not subjected to the patronizing comments in person, but some comments here are pretty dumb.

Anyway, I don't really see a 'war' between RJ pilot and mainline pilots. It is between a handful of outspoken idiots on both sides.

Also, I don't see a whole lot of flexibility of mainline guys on the issue of scope when I talk to them personally. I think the majority of them 'get it' when it comes to what's going on and how badly this issue has damaged the industry. Very few wish to give up further scope. We'll see what happens though in negotiations...

But when I have seen mainline guys on the right seats at J4J jobs they must know that that is their future if there is further scope erosion. Just the way it is.

Very good post. This is spot on. I've been at Delta about 2 years and the guys that give RJ pilots a hard time are few and far between. The majority of mainline pilots understand how the industry works and why the regionals have become what they are today.

Agreed the majority of mainline pilots are silent on the issue and fully recognize what is at stake. Also agreed they will remain inflexible on the issu so nothing will be done about it.

As for war, there can be little doubt mainline pilots and regional pilots are in competition for jobs. The mainline pilots accuse the regional pilots of stealing their jobs and crap all over them for it. Regional pilots resent the treatment and are emboldened to compete even further. This was usually a lopsided fight when a mainline had 10,000 pilots and their feeder had less than 2,000. Now the mainlines have been reduced in size and the regionals have grown. Some are even flying aircraft traditionally seen as mainline aircraft which allows them to grow into low cost carriers for code-sharing. If the mainline pilots do not cooperate better with regional pilots, they will see a further erosion of their own jobs.

Hence my previous post.

And nope, there should be NO FURTHER SCOPE RELAXATION WHAT SO EVER!

But it makes you wonder, in the negotiation process, what did the NC have to give up to get "regional" airframe rates on the books? A shame that EVERYTHING is subject to negotiation and everything is a give and take.

If it is a competition for jobs between mainline and the regional carriers, I want mainline to win. Definitely. I'd rather be in my current airplane on a mainline seniority list with the chance to transition to a nicer airplane and nicer QOL someday than have to start over from the bottom. Again.

As far as the inflexibility on scope, I hope they remain inflexible. I don't wish to see it go from 76 seats to 86 seats. Then 99 seats. Then 120 seats. I'd rather see those numbers go the other way, but it's hard to re-tube that toothpaste.

Everyone with any experience understands you are right. The problem is you are wrong in assuming mainline will win. They won't. Money controls airline operations and management holds the purse. We can mitigate, but we can't fully control. Even if pilots could have ESOP with members on the board, they'd still have to face up to the low costs carriers like Alligiant and JetBlue plus the growing ones like Republic and Skywest.

If mainline doesn't win, eventually there won't be any airline left. Republic went from being an airline no one ever heard of, couldn't pronounce, or even spell (Chautauqua), to a lift subcontractor for every single legacy carrier, and next its going to turn into an actual mainline competitor. With the money it was given by mainline managers. If Republic actually makes money as a stand alone carrier (and it certainly won't lose money based on labor costs) SkyWest will be next to go that route, buying whichever National brand is cheapest. Lift subcontracting won't be the cash cow it has been for the last decade - mainline managers probably wont agree to pay pay gas plus profit again. So being an independent is probably the way to go anyway.

Does it make sense for AMR to hire Delta to do flying for them? Obviously not. Ditto with Republic. You don't contract your jobs out to a competitor. And today's lift subcontractor is tomorrow's head-to-head competition.

Management may realize this too, and not care. Their lives and livelihoods are not dependent upon the long term success of the airline. Only the short term results matter to them. Honestly, management and speculators are on one side: trying to maximize this quarter's profits even at the expense of long term viability, with employees and long term investors on the the other, trying to ensure the enduring health of their company.

While you make many great points, we shouldn't forget the humble beginnings of all the "Legacy" carriers like Delta* and USAirways**. We're not seeing anything really new here. Simply the evolution of a business such as happened with "The Phone Company" and other industries over the past two centuries. It's what capitalism is all about. You're not anti-capitalist, are you? :D

*Delta Airlines: Formed as Huff Daland Dusters, Incorporated, an aerial crop dusting operation, on May 30, 1924 in Macon, Georgia, the company moved to Monroe, Louisiana, in 1925 and began acting as a passenger airline in late 1929.

**US Airways traces its history to All American Aviation Company, a company founded by du Pont family brothers Richard C. du Pont, Alexis Felix du Pont, Jr. and CEO Steven Gardner. Hubbed in Pittsburgh, the airline served the Ohio River valley in 1939. In 1949, the company was renamed All American Airways as it switched from airmail to passenger service. The company was again renamed to Allegheny Airlines in 1953. USAIR = USair, Allegheny In Reality.

Beagle,

Don't forget Continental started in 1934 as Varney Speed lines, flying a single engine Vega all the way from Pueblo, Colorado to El Paso - with only three stops en-route.


The humble beginnings of Republic wasn't really my point, but the way they grew via parasitic relationships with other airlines. AMR has historically been quite predatory. Anyone remember Vanguard, Sun Jet, Western Pacific or Legend? It would be the height of irony if Republic were to thrive as a stand alone carrier having grown strong enough to become a viable independent off the profits they gleaned flying American's passengers.


On the other hand there are few Empire Builder CEOs left in aviation. No more Hughes', Trippe's, Six's, Kelleher's or even Crandall's. Most have become finance guys squeezing the last drop of value from their companies before running off into the sunset with the loot. BB may end up being an Empire builder if he doesn't get leveraged out the way Neeleman or Bethune were. You heard it here first: Republic will be the Next Great Airline.;)