Latest Pinnacle contact update
 

No Where Near Being Complete.

Is there progress?

There is always progress. Just not sure if it is forward or backward...;)

After 5+ years this is news? You should have accepted the contract Buddy Casey gave 5 years ago. You'd already be negotiating off that one instead of the one that's nine years old.

On the plus side at least Spirit got released. It gives you hope yet.

There's no chance we are gonna get released anytime soon... specially after voting down last TA a few months back...

All we have to fix is 4 or 5 issues about it, right? That translates into probably 1-2 years at the pace this is going...

Depends who you talk to...3 maybe 4 issues for me, some guys im sure have about 47 items on the table......including changes to the hijacking/pow/ransom section and the "he also refers to she and the singular includes the plural" section :rolleyes:

I found the update to be interesting, it said something to the effect of using tomorrow for independent work and reengaging with the company later....well in ops last week PH and the other negotiator from Atlanta said come Friday whatever is un finished will be taken to the nmb. I asked for clarification and PH said that by Friday that was it, that was there no more talking, no more extending the talks with the company, so why would we get with them while waiting for the nmb? As is published on our company board, nothing is going to happen. The company will keep stalling so they don't have to hire...this whole thing is a joke. Does our MEC chair have a response to any of this?

Call SE- I'm sure he would talk to you.

There is progress FWIW, but the company is still not willing to cover the compensation and QOL issues that the MEC is pursuing on behalf of the pilot group from polling after TA1 and listening to the pilots that would put the pilot group in line with the industry. Everyone is angry, but the NMB is the last step in this marathon.

The frustrating part is the union is assuming (at least according to the last emails) that the company has any intention of negotiating or actually agreeing on a contract. This is an incorrect assumption. They will not agree to anything $ubstantive unless they are forced to. We should have immediately adopted a more aggressive attitude and set of tactics ... but instead we keep plodding along.

Shouldn't it wait till the new rest regulations and pilot flight time requirements come out?
I too would like a new contract but neither side has any clue of what is to come. Thanks FAA. You take stalling to a whole new level. Maybe they (FAA) should take additional training for stalls and unusual attitudes.

"Call SE- I'm sure he would talk to you."
I plan on it, however I think this is a serious issue and he is our top guy and I think he should address everyone. Although I shouldn't have jumped the gun as this all came out today, but I would expect something from him soon.

"The frustrating part is the union is assuming (at least according to the last emails) that the company has any intention of negotiating or actually agreeing on a contract. This is an incorrect assumption. They will not agree to anything $ubstantive unless they are forced to. We should have immediately adopted a more aggressive attitude and set of tactics ... but instead we keep plodding along."--------exactly, but we will negotiate in good faith while we continue to get walked on and get no where.....that's ok boys fly it and grieve it later.. And while we're at it, there's another msg about premium pay this weekend. :eek:

What exactly would you suggest? It's easy to say "get aggressive," but what exactly does that mean? Seems to me that your MEC is doing the right thing now: working to resolve the problems with the failed TA through direct negotiations, and taking the remaining items to the Board for assistance. That is the quickest way to a release, which is your only real leverage.

TA1 should have never made it past the MEC. It was painfully inadequate. The MEC and NC should have been more agressive in getting released instead of wasting everyone's time with TA1... the company has 'won' on just about every front for 5 plus years. It's ridiculous and a slap in the face to the PCL line pilots.

Management will continue to drag their feet and offer 'just enough' to keep from being released. They will NOT agree to anything meaningful unless forced to do so. The MEC and Chair should have known this for years!

Maybe they did...
Are we going to hear anymore information from our union before the end of June? Is our mec chairman going to address the pilots? I think our negotiating team has done a better job of sending out information but come on, this while thing is ridiculous. If this isn't going to get completed, why waste anymore time- if so everyone should go back to the line since we are so short staffed.....

That's easy to say, but you have to keep in mind that you're dealing with the NMB, and you want them on your side, otherewise you'll never get released. If the TA had been voted down by the MEC, then you probably would have been "parked" by the NMB for 6 months. Sending it out for a vote was the right move. It placated the Board, and now you can go back and fix the problems. If the company won't play ball, then the NMB will be more on your side, and you're more likely to get the release that you need.

We aren't going to get a TA this year or the next!! Really people!! I'm through getting my hopes up about this whole thing. This company is such a joke and the pilot group is FAR from being unified; there are too many tools at PNCL!!:eek:

And how come we can't get releasd?!?!?!?! Spirit hasn't been in negotiations as long as we have!!!! If anyone really thinks this company honestly wants to "work with us" and give us a good deal:rolleyes:, they are living in fantasyland. IT IS GOING TO TAKE US GETTING RELEASED TO GET A FAIR TA!!!

Rant over...:D

As a captain here, I will not do anything malicious to delay a flight as some have suggested elsewhere. However, my personal on-time perfomance is fairly bad I'm sure due to flying the way the FAR's, books, and safety dictate. There are things we should be doing that aren't wrong to do. Such as study your FOM and find interesting tidbits of information that most of us do not follow in an effort to be on time. "By the book" operating is the professional and moral way to operate as a pilot...check out FOM 13-9, first paragraph-bottom section, that one sentance in chp 13 would send on time performance down 30%...I do not do anything maliciously, just simply try to do my best to fly safely, by the rules set forth from the FAA and company, and then on time performance enters my mind. #1.SAFETY, #2.COMPLIANCE, then ON-TIME. Some of us get those priorities all mixed up...if you fly correctly and professionally (ie. not wink and nod at ops specs and just "make it happen") some things take care of themselves. Chp 4-14 bottom section would knock out a lot of other guys operating illegally-ever take an antihistimine while operating with a cold? Zyrtec? medication Did you know you have to take anti-biotics for at least 48hrs before returning to work? Open the door and brief the 20% of flights that have no working headset for pushback. If it's broken, write it up regardless of what it is (spoilerons fault anyone?) or where it happens. Guys, just do it right and a lot of this will take care of itself.

Been gone from there for over nine years, so I certainly have no dog in this fight, but maybe someone can explain WHY the "alleged" impropriety with WG was hushed up so well and nothing disclosed to membership? I mean a member of the MEC was recalled in closed session and still nothing will be said about it?

Also, whatever became of the person who used union membership rolls to send slanderous emails? Were they ever disciplined?

Good point with the above post, however I don't know if anyone can truely answer your questions. There are plenty of rumors but nothing formally has been issued to the pilot group except they were looking into the email ordeal. We took a survey when the first TA failed and communication, or a lack there of, was a concern. The negotiators have been much better about negotiation updates but our chairman has been MIA. Reps will tell us to contact him or our local reps for info, but issues that you have brought up need to be addressed to the pilot group and not left for individual pilots calling a rep and spreading the word on the line where information always gets mixed up. The same is true in regards to the current negotiations.
The chairman needs to step up and communicate with the pilot group.

Given the magnitude of the individual (WG) and the allegation, it does seem that disclosure should be made.

As to the second: chickensh!t emails are sooo high school. Well, not when I was in HS...didn't have email then. But the need for outing and discipline remain.

How about the rumor that one of the former negotiators got bought out of flying for at least a year and spent most of the time fishing in Arkansas while nothing was getting done? There seems to be several skeletons in the union closet that were overlooked during the times of massive hiring and attrition. Now people are actually paying attention again.

Technically, a "work to the rules" campaign is illegal but if everybody just takes it upon themselves, I'd think it would be awfully hard to go after anybody for it. I don't think a union can come out and promote this idea though. Be careful what you post on public forums guys (not that I ever am).

Really? I mean were are they now? SE didn't want this TA to pass but let it go to the membership under your same assumption. So 6 months will turn into 24. The membership was not served well by this technique.

Blame the MEC reps at the time, they voted to either let us see it or not...i dont think SE had a vote...

Any rep that voted for us to see that crap should be recalled and removed from office they are the ones that set us back!!!! and most of them voted for the crappy w-2 dist. method..

I would be happy to see both ATL reps removed...i have flown with the Captain rep many times he just wants a contract good or BAD...

Yeah, this next TA will be so good.

:rolleyes: yeah right...

Want better pay and work rules? Start filling out job applications. This "airline" is never going to do it.

The airline might not get any better but the union can. The union needs to take a stronger stance on things and then maybe the company will take things a little more seriously. For example: fly it and grieve it later.....what a great concept. With this concept, what is preventing the company from doing it again? Nothing.. That would be a huge step in the right direction but I won't hold my breath.
Still no word from our MEC chairman...Don't worry it's only been xxxx days since our contract has been amendable.

*edit*

nevermind... good luck PCL group... you'll need it

So the MEC members are more to blame than SE. Either way, this is dragging out at naseum by the company. It's been a death of a hundred cuts for the regular line guys. Very sad. With really no end in sight unless there's a cooling off period. Which is the same scenerio the Pinnacle pilots had 4 years ago.

The company will continue to offer 'just enough' to fend off a release. They have played the game very well...unfortunately.

I'd hope not to get into any "trouble" for saying to fly like a professional. I'm certainly not advocating any sort of "campaign"...just do what we are paid for and do it correctly. I'm just somewhat taken aback to some suggestions floating around the pilot group that would be morally and legally wrong to sabotage our operation. That should NOT happen. Simply fly right and quit taking short cuts as captains. As a jumpseater from time to time on our planes, I've seen many times where guys deliberately cut safety corners and compliance goes by the wayside in order to get out early/on-time. Just fly right. Be good. I don't think this is any different than what our CP would tell us to do. I believe many of our pilots don't follow the FOM as we should. That's all.

I don't think the mec members are more to blame than SE. I think the buck stops with him and that's part of the job he's taken. I don't know him personally but from a union members point of view I think the way he's handled everything, esspecially the negotiations, is wrong. We pay our dues every month and what return have we gotten? We can't even get an update from our chairman. As previously mentioned there have been no updates regarding the recalls or anything that goes on with the exception of negotiations, which come from the negotiation comittee. Why haven't we done any informal picketing? There is nothing from the leadership and it's truely sad...

WOW. I hear the fishing is good there!

Why do you assume that "6 months will turn into 24?" I think you should call SE and talk to him about this, because it seems as though you need to learn a little bit more about the process. The MEC and NC have handled the process very well, from what I can see. They took the smart path of trying to correct the mistakes rather than trying to start from scratch. The latter path would have resulted in the 24 months that you're thinking (or more). The former path is the way to a deal sooner. I expect that you'll either have a deal or a release by late summer, and I think it will be a deal rather than a release.

Fly it and grieve it is the law of the land (RLA); it's not a concept dreamed up by your MEC. Every pilot group in this country has to live under the same rules. Don't like it? Contribute to ALPA-PAC so that we'll have a chance someday to fix the law.

This just indicates a lack of understanding of how the union is structured. SE has no vote. He simply works for the Status Reps and does as they direct. He can make recommendations to them, but they can ignore him and issue their own direction, and he has to follow.

Having known him for about 7 years, I think I can speak to this. Has he made mistakes? I'm sure. Everyone does, myself included. But is he a good MEC Chairman? Overall, I think he is. Although his predecessor had his strong points, I think SE was a monumental improvement. He understands the process, he works hard, and he's a true trade unionist. If you have concerns (such as communications), then you should call him and discuss those concerns, or show up at the next MEC meeting to tell him face-to-face. Complaining about it on a message board on the internet won't accomplish anything. Be proactive. I guarantee you that SE wants to do what's best for the pilot group. If you have good suggestions for improvements, I'm sure that he'd love to listen.

You have a benefit that many pilot groups do not: an MEC Chairman who is a true trade unionist and wants to do the right thing, rather than an opportunist who is only looking out for himself. Sadly, union work attracts far too many of the latter, and far too few of the former. Be glad that your MEC Chairman falls into the better category.

O.K. I have been gone for more than 2 years but am always interested in what is going on and how my friends are getting along at Pinnacle. As far as the fly it and grieve it mentality, that is an industry wide problem. As you probably remember a while back a few pilots decided to not fly an assignment that they knew was blatantly illegal per the contract. They were not given the contractually mandated rest period before an assignment if my memory serves me correctly. This was an extremely black and white issue with no DW comment about that is not how we interpret the contract. The company decided to fire all of them except the one smart F.O. who said he was fatigued. The company knew they did not have a leg to stand on but fired them all for insubordination. Even though the company knew they would lose this case and end up giving them all their jobs back with lost pay, the company chose to fire them for intimidation value alone. If I am not mistaken all pilots were eventually offered their jobs back and one person was smart and said I don't want it back. This is the management team that this pilot group is dealing with. I always had a lot of luck when getting an illegal assignment and being told to fly it and grieve it. I would simply put the ball right back in their court by stating: "I will not fly this assignment and grieve it later. You go ahead and issue me a "missed trip" and I will grieve the missed trip." For whatever reason schedulers were very reluctant to choose this path and would usually focus on another victim. Hang in their folks, you will eventually wear this crooked management team down and get an acceptable contract.

"Crooked Management" being the key word.

They will not give one dime to the pilot group unless forced to do so.

It's been that way from the beginning, the union just needs to realize that.

I agree, nothing will happen until you guys are released and a strike is imminent. I think Management will not want the wrath of Daddy Delta if and when a strike causes problems for the Delta operation.

The truth is Uncle Phil and his cronies are more powerful than SE and his cronies.

Phil wants to go 10 years without a pilot contract. They have no desire to give 9E a fair and reasonable contract. No desire for an industry average contract. They want the airline to be paid far below industry average in all forms and fashions.

TA1 was designed to fail. They were glad it did. TA2 is being designed to fail also. After 6 years of stalling, their only options are to have TA's fail to buy them more time.

TA2 will pass if it is ever makes it up for vote!

I think Pinch might be right. Consider this..

TA1 was really inadequate with things like..

Very little reserve relief

W2 bonus pay method

No hard payscales, just formulas for keeping the pay 'average'. Really? Not the best idea.

Meanwhile, Phil and others keep making bonuses and saving tons of interest on the pilot retro money that wasn't paid out.

The worst thing management did was the Auction Rate Securities that really supressed any growth going forward, but they have NEVER admitted that major mistake, just keep taking their bonuses and stock options.

TA1 should have never made it for a vote, plain and simple. You can't spin it any other way. It was inadequate.

CB