Golden Bear

FAR 121.359 prohibits the FAA from using CVR information for enforcement action, but nothing in the regs addresses how an airline (who are the legal owners of that equipment and data) might utilize it.

From your quote above, are you stating that your management is prohibited by contract from even listening to the CVR? Quite a stipulation! How is this enforced?

I'd imagine its something more like "information gathered from the CVR cannot be used against a pilot" blah, blah, blah... but that would not prohibit the company from actually listening to the CVR. Big difference.

xcop

I hope the crew all made their commute home and to the front end crew congratulations on that landing.

Nevets

I didn't think a stipulation like that in a contract was quite a stipulation. It is enforced by the section of our contract specifying the process for dispute resolution and through the RLA. In any case, I know at XJT, they don't listen to CVRs unless there is a reportable accident or incident. So is it true that SKW management actually listen to random CVR recordings? Here is the section of my contract dealing with recorded data:

E. Recorded Data

1. The term “recorded data or information” means data or information derived from a Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), Flight Data Recorder (FDR), Quick Access Recorder (QAR), Flight Data Acquisition Unit (FDAU), Central Maintenance Computer (CMC), Aircraft Communications and Reporting System (ACARS), Video Recorder or any other similar onboard recording device.

2. Recorded data or information may be used to investigate an accident or incident, to further approved safety programs as set out in the ASAP or FOQA Letters of Agreement, or for maintenance and aircraft reliability purposes. Except by mutual agreement of the parties, as required by government regulation or judicial order, or as provided below, recorded data or information will not be disclosed to any third party. Recorded data or information will not be used by the Company in any legal or administrative proceeding against a pilot(s) involving discipline, discharge, FAR violation, civil liability or criminal penalty nor will it be used by the Company to investigate or initiate discipline. The Company will not monitor individual performance or compliance with policy, directives or regulations with such data.

a. Accident or Incident Investigation – The use of recorded data or information during the investigation of an accident or incident will be limited to government agencies responsible for accident or incident investigation and designated members of the accident investigation team, including Company and Association representatives on that team.

i. Data from a CVR or FDR will only be removed from an aircraft following an accident or incident in accordance with regulations and directives of the responsible government agency. When data from a CVR or FDR will be removed from an aircraft for review or analysis following an accident or incident, the Association and the pilot(s) involved will be given advance notice of the time and place for such review and be given an opportunity to attend.

ii. To investigate an occurrence or event not governed by government agency regulations or directives, and if mutually agreed by the parties, data from a CVR or FDR may be removed from an aircraft. When data from a CVR or FDR will be removed from an aircraft under these circumstances, the Association and the pilot(s) involved will be given advance notice of the time and place for such review and be given an opportunity to attend.

b. ASAP and FOQA Programs – The use of recorded data or information under these programs is specified in the Letters of Agreement regarding ASAP and FOQA dated respectively:
ASAP: 9/12/2001
ASAP Continuation: 3/14/2003
FOQA: 5/13/1999

c. Maintenance and Reliability Purposes-Recorded data or information may be used for maintenance and reliability purposes in order to evaluate aircraft systems or components and such information may be shared with manufacturers or suppliers of those systems or components. When possible, any recorded data or information used pursuant to this paragraph will have all pilot identifying characteristics removed from the data or information prior to such use.

d. The Company will not be prevented from using recorded data or information that is derived from ACARS regarding “in”, “off”, “on” or “out” times in proceedings referred to in paragraph E.2., above, to corroborate reports of misconduct obtained from another source.

3. The Company shall use its best efforts to ensure the confidentiality and security of all recorded data or information to prevent unauthorized access or use.

4. CVRs shall have the capability for erasure at the end of each flight and, except as prohibited by FARs, a Captain shall have the right to erase his aircraft’s CVR at the end of any incident or accident free flight.

flyboyzz1

That's not exactly true. The raw data is downloaded including the FDR for fuel conservation programs. Currently, no one is listening at anything randomly.

Nevets

How about not randomly? Are they listening to targeted CVRs?

In any case, CVR data is not needed for fuel conservation programs. At XJT, they only use FOQA and ACARS data for that type of information. And the FOQA data is used in accordance with the FOQA LOA which is incorporated by reference into our contract. FDR data is restricted to accident/incident investigation.

Golden Bear

Netvets,

Why don't you tell us what you seem to know? Not one word on the SAPA Forums about this happening but somehow you seem to know more. Could you please share your details if you have them instead of just throwing out innuendo? Facts only, please!

Nevets

I don't know anything definitively. Its just hearsay. Which is precisely why I said that I "heard" it was happening and why I later specifically asked the question since you implied that it was normal for the owners (airlines) to able to listen to the CVR (which I guess is true of non-union airlines) and then even added that if somehow XJT had quite a stipulation that it would be "something more like 'information gathered from the CVR cannot be used against a pilot' blah, blah, blah... but that would not prohibit the company from actually listening to the CVR." These are the kind of assumptions that I could only admittedly guess you get if your airline indeed listen to CVRs. I also asked because you didn't seem to deny my hearsay when you replied to my post.

I apologize that my post came out as innuendo but those are the only details and facts that I have to share. If it were happening, I doubt there would be anything in the SAPA forums about it, IMHO.