NTSB urges investigation into regional roles
10-26-2010, 07:22 PM
#11
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: FO, B-777
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by Riddler
Whenever the regionals hire people with an ATP, then you can make your claim that all pilots are trained and tested to ATP standards.
-- break -- break --
OK, I'm admittedly anti-regional when it comes to outsourcing jobs and ruining this profession. That's not the same thing as saying that I think all regional pilots are inferior to us high and mighty mainline pilots. Here's what I believe to be "facts" of this industry:
1. The public will always search for the cheapest ticket, regardless of service, amenities, or safety.
2. Management will always strive to cut costs and provide the cheapest ticket, regardless of service, amenities, training, or safety.
3. Pilots are expected to act as cost shock absorbers whenever fuel price increases or demand decreases.
4. Pilots are their own worst enemies. Thousands of pilots entered this industry thinking that "they" would be the ones that would be able to upgrade to an RJ captain in a year or 2, then get hired by a major in another year or 2. By doing so for the past 10 years, they contributed towards a downward trend of pilot pay. No one single pilot can be blamed, yet the collective actions illustrate the age-old "tragedy of the commons."
5. ALPA can't represent both RJ and mainline groups, but stupid mainline pilots like me and stupid regional pilots like you haven't been willing or able to make ALPA do anything other than improve the lifestyle of ALPA employees.
OK, rant over, flame away.
-- break -- break --
OK, I'm admittedly anti-regional when it comes to outsourcing jobs and ruining this profession. That's not the same thing as saying that I think all regional pilots are inferior to us high and mighty mainline pilots. Here's what I believe to be "facts" of this industry:
1. The public will always search for the cheapest ticket, regardless of service, amenities, or safety.
2. Management will always strive to cut costs and provide the cheapest ticket, regardless of service, amenities, training, or safety.
3. Pilots are expected to act as cost shock absorbers whenever fuel price increases or demand decreases.
4. Pilots are their own worst enemies. Thousands of pilots entered this industry thinking that "they" would be the ones that would be able to upgrade to an RJ captain in a year or 2, then get hired by a major in another year or 2. By doing so for the past 10 years, they contributed towards a downward trend of pilot pay. No one single pilot can be blamed, yet the collective actions illustrate the age-old "tragedy of the commons."
5. ALPA can't represent both RJ and mainline groups, but stupid mainline pilots like me and stupid regional pilots like you haven't been willing or able to make ALPA do anything other than improve the lifestyle of ALPA employees.
OK, rant over, flame away.
I agree with all of that!
Something completely different; There have been times when even the majors hired pilots with less then 500 total hours, and their was a whole slew of them too. White, Black, Male and female. I'm at the regionals and have been a captain for over 10 years and when my company hired the pilots with 300 hours my day was busy, but almost everyone has become a great asset! The bottom line is WE are our worst enemy.
I have no idea how ALPA can objectively represent both Major and Regional pilots for a specific company. Although, I do believe that ALPA representing Pilots to congress and government as a whole is more powerful.
I know that the airlines are all crying because of the recession and high fuel costs but we as pilots need to bring the pay and work rules back. I have no idea how to do it but I will support any sane ideas.
10-27-2010, 10:04 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by crazy pills
Why don't you go find a female united pilot hired in the late 80's early 90's and ask her how many hours she had when she started. Then re-post your thoughts.
10-27-2010, 10:34 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by crazy pills
Why don't you go find a female united pilot hired in the late 80's early 90's and ask her how many hours she had when she started. Then re-post your thoughts.
I support the 1500 hr requirement plus an ATP without any exceptions.
10-27-2010, 10:43 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
Posts: 880
Do you honestly think that United hired these 300 hr folks because they thought they were great prospects? Or, was it because they were under threat of a "lawsuit" if they did not comply with Federal mandates? United has always ( look at some of their past t.v. advertisements), preached about how experienced their pilots were and the vast amounts of knowledge they brought into the cockpit. For the most part, they are correct. For the 300hr "have to hire", maybe not so.
10-27-2010, 11:10 AM
#15
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Flying for a regional
Flying for a regional is a demanding job as a pilot. Multiple legs that start before the majors and end long after they are at the hotel. They fly smaller underpowered, stuffed to the gills, turboprops into small often uncontrolled airports.
The major airline guys fly ILS to ILS while the regional pilot might fly several non-precision step down approaches in a day. Regional guys have short low level legs that leave them in the weather all day, icing up and getting shaken baby syndrome due to the turbulence.
A regional crew might make eight landings in a day while the wide body international crew struggles to maintain 3 landings in 90 days. It is no wonder that regional guys have more accidents. They are tired, worn out, under paid and exposed to riskier flying then major airline pilots. If anything the regional guys should be mentoring the complacent legacy pilots.
At the end of the day the regional pilot is bone tired and on his/her way to the nearest motel 6 for 8 short hours of rest while the major airline guy is sleeping in at the Embassy Suites on enough per diem to afford to buy a real breakfast.
Skyhigh
The major airline guys fly ILS to ILS while the regional pilot might fly several non-precision step down approaches in a day. Regional guys have short low level legs that leave them in the weather all day, icing up and getting shaken baby syndrome due to the turbulence.
A regional crew might make eight landings in a day while the wide body international crew struggles to maintain 3 landings in 90 days. It is no wonder that regional guys have more accidents. They are tired, worn out, under paid and exposed to riskier flying then major airline pilots. If anything the regional guys should be mentoring the complacent legacy pilots.
At the end of the day the regional pilot is bone tired and on his/her way to the nearest motel 6 for 8 short hours of rest while the major airline guy is sleeping in at the Embassy Suites on enough per diem to afford to buy a real breakfast.
Skyhigh
10-27-2010, 12:28 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Flying for a regional is a demanding job as a pilot. Multiple legs that start before the majors and end long after they are at the hotel. They fly smaller underpowered, stuffed to the gills, turboprops into small often uncontrolled airports.
The major airline guys fly ILS to ILS while the regional pilot might fly several non-precision step down approaches in a day. Regional guys have short low level legs that leave them in the weather all day, icing up and getting shaken baby syndrome due to the turbulence.
A regional crew might make eight landings in a day while the wide body international crew struggles to maintain 3 landings in 90 days. It is no wonder that regional guys have more accidents. They are tired, worn out, under paid and exposed to riskier flying then major airline pilots. If anything the regional guys should be mentoring the complacent legacy pilots.
At the end of the day the regional pilot is bone tired and on his/her way to the nearest motel 6 for 8 short hours of rest while the major airline guy is sleeping in at the Embassy Suites on enough per diem to afford to buy a real breakfast.
Skyhigh
The major airline guys fly ILS to ILS while the regional pilot might fly several non-precision step down approaches in a day. Regional guys have short low level legs that leave them in the weather all day, icing up and getting shaken baby syndrome due to the turbulence.
A regional crew might make eight landings in a day while the wide body international crew struggles to maintain 3 landings in 90 days. It is no wonder that regional guys have more accidents. They are tired, worn out, under paid and exposed to riskier flying then major airline pilots. If anything the regional guys should be mentoring the complacent legacy pilots.
At the end of the day the regional pilot is bone tired and on his/her way to the nearest motel 6 for 8 short hours of rest while the major airline guy is sleeping in at the Embassy Suites on enough per diem to afford to buy a real breakfast.
Skyhigh
Also valid reasons why that regional pilot should be compensated more for his/her services. (Increasing the requirements lowers the supply, and the pay will have to go up)
Safer and better pay. Support 1500 hours and an ATP (no exceptions) for entry level Part 121 requirements.
10-27-2010, 12:32 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Blue fifi flogger
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Flying for a regional is a demanding job as a pilot. Multiple legs that start before the majors and end long after they are at the hotel. They fly smaller underpowered, stuffed to the gills, turboprops into small often uncontrolled airports.
The major airline guys fly ILS to ILS while the regional pilot might fly several non-precision step down approaches in a day. Regional guys have short low level legs that leave them in the weather all day, icing up and getting shaken baby syndrome due to the turbulence.
A regional crew might make eight landings in a day while the wide body international crew struggles to maintain 3 landings in 90 days. It is no wonder that regional guys have more accidents. They are tired, worn out, under paid and exposed to riskier flying then major airline pilots. If anything the regional guys should be mentoring the complacent legacy pilots.
At the end of the day the regional pilot is bone tired and on his/her way to the nearest motel 6 for 8 short hours of rest while the major airline guy is sleeping in at the Embassy Suites on enough per diem to afford to buy a real breakfast.
Skyhigh
The major airline guys fly ILS to ILS while the regional pilot might fly several non-precision step down approaches in a day. Regional guys have short low level legs that leave them in the weather all day, icing up and getting shaken baby syndrome due to the turbulence.
A regional crew might make eight landings in a day while the wide body international crew struggles to maintain 3 landings in 90 days. It is no wonder that regional guys have more accidents. They are tired, worn out, under paid and exposed to riskier flying then major airline pilots. If anything the regional guys should be mentoring the complacent legacy pilots.
At the end of the day the regional pilot is bone tired and on his/her way to the nearest motel 6 for 8 short hours of rest while the major airline guy is sleeping in at the Embassy Suites on enough per diem to afford to buy a real breakfast.
Skyhigh
Your view of the regionals is seriously outdated. There are still a few guys doing that for Lakes, Colgan, and Mesaba for a while longer. The majority of "regional" guys are flying jet equipment, some with autothrottles, from ILS to ILS. I never once did 8 landings as a "regional" guy (although I did as a check-hauler, which is another dying craft).
10-27-2010, 02:01 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Hot tub for now
Posts: 1,203
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
The rule of common sense. Majors don't hire 250 hour wonders from ___ or ____. Skills learned to pass a SIC type ride may not be the same as several hundred hours of single pilot PIC time trying to survive hauling night freight, charter, or ____.
10-27-2010, 02:47 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: FO
Posts: 3,031
Originally Posted by PBSG
Exactly- but we cant talk about that. As several old gummers at CAL have told me: "There is no shortcut to a major airline job!"
Last edited by BlueMoon; 10-27-2010 at 02:48 PM. Reason: spelling/grammar
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