Attn HPN/PHL, LGA/PHL, and EWR/PHL pilots
 

Please stop asking on contact for the SBJ.V3.Mazie.PHL shortcut. We're all aware that you're trying to save time, and trust me when I tell you that we try get it for you whenever you can, but its getting pretty ridiculous now with every single pilot asking for it all the time, specially during busy times, as that route puts you in direct conflict with all the satellite arrivals flying the Jayke2 star.

Perhaps having your NATCA reps work though the union reps of the "offending" airlines would be a more effective method of communicating than APC?

That's what I'm thinking. You're only hitting 5% or so of the Piedm...errrrr....HPN/PHL-LGA/PHL pilots by putting it out on here.

Will you give it to us if we don't ask? Should we stop asking after 9am? I mean, suggest some alternatives.

Dude, did you join this forum just to complain?

A simple 'unable' usually works if you can't accommodate a request.

Talk to Phil...hell, you work with him...he's in your area!!

Yeah, because nobody else does that. :rolleyes:

An easy reply of "Sure, you can expect that and holding. Advise when ready to copy." Should quell any of those requests in the future.

I actually make it a point to give to the ones that don't ask.

And yes.... if its dead slow, we really don't mind. its the constant asking in the middle of busy times that tick us off.

Phil? he hasn't stepped in our area with a headset on in years and has total disconnect with our issues.

Anyway...sorry for the 'whine". Just a frustrating continuing issue and I agree this is probably not the right venue for it. My apologies.

Ajax no apologies needed. Tell us what else irks you. We're listening...

actually...that and the ocasional pilot that doesn't read the EWR8 or the TEB6/Ruudy2 departure notes are the only "irks" most of us have.

99.9% of the pilots I speak to on a daily basis are very professional, and know the drill in our airspace.

I am in particular very impressed with the quality of the regional pilots flying into EWR nowadays. Readback mistakes and pilot deviations are down significantly compared to years past. Not sure what's changed in the industry as far as training goes, but I'm very pleased to work with this new generation of professional pilots.

Competition,
that's what has changed. Most of the pilots flying right now have been doing it for a while. It would be nice to think that they have a vague idea of what they are doing by now.

None of us want to be "that guy" that sounds like a rookie or cant fly a SID. Thanks for the heads up.

Hey do you guys let pilots in over there at the Tracon in Westbury? to take a look...

I saw a tour on the floor a week ago with some GA pilots, so I believe they're still doing it. Call ahead the operations manager at 516-683-2968 to get a clearance or directions on how to get one.

"Intercept the COL350 to COL"

"Ahhhhh, we dont have that in our flight plan....."

I've never asked for that, good to know from your side of the desk though. At CommutAir when going from EWR to PHL, I'll ask sometimes for ARD direct at 4,000'. I usually only do it during non-peak times, but I'm assuming that's something that cannot be accommodated during higher volume times. What's your take on asking for that?

Another question if you don't mind. When taking off on the EWR8, sometimes the tower asks us to wait and turn after passing the end of the runway on departure instead of 420' or whatever the chart says. Is this so we don't turn too soon from our slow speed/rapid climb rate to not incur with arrivals on the parallel?

One more if I can.... All the time we are given 2,500 instead of the 3,000 or 5,000 from the SID (EWR8), however, most of the time when contacting departure they give us higher right away. Just curious what the reason for that is.

Thanks for coming on here and talking with us. There are a lot of things we can learn from getting the controller's perspective. Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions too, better understanding on both sides can help everything run smoother.

Most of us getting hired right now are furloughed from other carriers and/or have thousands of hours flying part 135/instructing, etc. The overall quality of new hires are much higher right now than what we saw from 06-08.

1) the Ard @4000 shortcut can only be done during off peak hours for similar reasons. We get fed TEB/MMU/CDW traffic incoming from the PHL area @4000 opposite direction. Avoid asking for that during peak hours.

2)That's correct. They're protecting from a go around on the parallel.

3)The initial climbout off 22R will be either 5000 or 2500 depending on what LGA is doing. We have an imaginary boundary line dividing our airspace called "special use line". Depending on what flow LGA is on they will have arrivals coming up to the line descending no lower than 6000 if "we have the line" or they'll be coming down to 3500 if "they have the line". This is mainly to protect against any potential radio failure, since the initial departure heading on the EWR8 off 22R takes you towards the line opposite direction to their descending arrivals. Once you check in with us...radio failure procedure is obviously no longer needed, and we can climb on contact as long as we are turning you away from the line.

4) Expanding on 3 above. This is the same reason why departing 4L you're issued 3000, except on that side of the airport LGA always owns the line above 4000 (used to be 3500). You have TEB ILS6 arrivals flying exactly 3 miles west off the departure end, and its the reason why you turn to a 060' heading immediately after takeoff, so as to parallel TEB arrivals. They'll be out of 2000 for 1500, and we normally don't turn you westbound until you're above them, and can't climb you higher than 3000 until you're diverging from the LGA line, which is why on peak times you'll be left at 3000 until you start your turn to the 290 heading.

Wow. I've always had a lot of respect for you controllers over here. It's a fuster cluck of airspace. I don't know how you do it but thank you.

Ajax

If you had your way in fixing things, what would it be? New equipment? Complete redo of all SIDs/STARs? Runway closures? Just curious how the fluster cuck should be handled from your seat.:)

if I had my way I close TEB, and move EWR to where MMU is, with an extra set of parallels that are far appart to run simultaneously....hehe

Just dreaming. Realistically there is not much that can be done. We just have too many busy airports too close to each other. I always laugh when we get other controllers from places like ORD, DFW, ATL, or LAX to visit here. They run higher volume, but nowhere near the mess we got here. They usually go "you guys are nuts". :)

New equipment would be nice.

Good thread, Ajax.

I can't speak to whether or not you guys are nuts, but there isn't a group of controllers I'd rather work with, that's for sure. What sector do you usually work?

I'll keep the V3-MAZIE thing in mind, but if the cap'n says ask for it, well...we need a secret giraffe call or something I can throw in so you know it's me asking and you can just ignore the request ;)

Here's a question for you: I was recently talking with my buddy that flies a BE350, frequently into TEB. What is the best way to file into TEB coming from the south? It seems the typical routing is up V16 to DQO, MXE, then V3 around the west side of PHL. I've only been into TEB twice - in pistons - and that is what I got. I'm guessing there is no way to stay east of PHL, even at a higher alt? He and I looked at all the arrivals into the various airports up there (MMU, CDW, even EWR) and didn't see anything helpful (for TP's).

I'll have to second that. You guys do an amazing job... I really don't see how you all pull it off every day. Truly awesome to see it in action all the time!

I work in the EWR area. our area has several radar sectors that I'm sure most of you that are regulars in our airspace are familiar with.

Departure (119.2)
Satellite departure (126.7) only opened at peak times
North Arrival (120.15)
22L final (125.5) combined with North arrival on offpeak times
Yardley (128.55)
Penns. This position is combined with Yardley when landing on 22L, and with North arrival when landing on 4R. Its never opened by itself.
4R final (125.5) combined with Yardley on offpeak times
Metro (132.8) Often combined with Yardley even during peak times if short on staffing
CRDA aka Rwy 11 final. (128.8) Only opened for 11 arrivals when primary rwy is 22L during peak times. When 4R is primary rwy this is combined with Mugzy.
Mugzy (127.6)
Zeebo (123.77) combined with Mugzy 99% of the time. Only opened for superpeak times

We have to maintain currency in all the sectors. I only mentioned the radar ones that you'd be talking to, but we have a few more positions (handoff positions, coordinators, sequencers, flight data, the back) that we rotate as well.

Best Air Traffic Controllers in the world...hands down.

Just promise me that next year when it comes to RWY11 requests you guys won't be swayed by a new flat screen in the break room courtesy of Southwest Airlines Pilot Association. Some of us have been making that work for years as well as shared many beers at BBQ's out on Long Island with ya'...

If they throw in a sports package subscription with that flat screen is going to be really hard not to give in. :P

j/k

We try be as fair and impartial as humanly possible.

Haha. That'll get guys every time if they're unfamiliar with that departure. Maybe if they actually read how you get to WHITE.(At least I think it's WHITE) It's been a few years since my XE days. :o

Whats up Ajax,

Hello from the 182 pilot at Skydive Sussex on 127.60, we all know how much you guys LOVE us all day!! I wonder which controller you are, I know your not paul aka the wolf man. I wonder if your the one who says your welcome every time someone says thank you, or the guy who responds with Roger! in a slightly increasing pitch over the word. You could be the new guy from Texas, or you could be the female controller who is always a blast to work with, she occasional says use caution sky dumping...i mean sky diving. You could be the one guy who never ever ever wants to talk to us. You could be Randy...I think his name is Randy who keeps trying to plan a trip out here, and occasionally hands me off to weird NY freq. who ask what the cost is and phone number, and loves when I tell them Traccon IDS can spark a short $1 special on the cash register. Or the guy that was working the one day when some VFR guy from Canada called up and the controller asked what his location was, and he said about 175 miles north of Lancaster. Not sure how many guys work your sector but I feel like I always get the same 8 or 9 guys/girls. Also my Dad thinks you guys are top notch, he is a UAL bus captain, he is the one who will always tell ya to drive home safe. I have about 1000 hours flying in that airspace flying jumpers over the last year and a half, even though its busy, and we can clash, compared to NORCAL last winter, you guys rock.

if it feels like you always get the same 8 or 9 guys, its probably not far from reality. We have 41 fully qualified controllers in my area, but many of us have our "favorite" positions, and we tend to try work those more. For example, I prefer to work yardley/penns, or north arrival/penns, or either of the finals, or departure over any of the other positions. I don't particularly care much for Mugsy mostly because I rather work with the professional pilots, instead of the gazillion VFR weekend warriors that Mugsy gets. If I get it assigned of course I wont turn it down, but I don't go out of my way to get it.

I really have mixed feelings about your skydiving operation. To be totally frank....I am amazed that to this day, we haven't had an incident with a jumper going splat over some aircraft's windshield. You guys are dropping this jumpers directly over a busy arrival fix, and as much as we try to warn both you and any inbounds about the jumps, I'm always worried about it.

I'll tell you this much....I'm not the new guy from Texas (I've been here 20 years), nor am I female. However, I'm pretty sure that you'd know instantly who I am if I tell you. :D

Haha maybe it is the wolfman? and we can not help where we are located nor will we go anywhere. However down at our south jersey location they are right on the Philly Intl Cedar Lake arrival, and they put in an INT called JUMPP for when they are jumping to bring PHL ariv. 2 miles around crosskeys airport. I think the biggest thing is communication, I know when I fly I do not drop anyone when you guys advice traffic, and it is easy for us to see the IFR arrivals as they come the same route and your eyes get trained for it. I also visited your facility to get a better idea of how your end looks. I also think you can agree the climb I use is about as out of the way as we can get, as I have been using the same exact one for over a year now, and I am basically the only one flying the 182 this year, except days I was off work. As for an accident, yes it is always something to keep in mind, but the sky is also very large, and our jumpers are trained to also look before they jump and clear the airspace, and I know I hold when you say there is IFR traffic. One thing is for sure we are not going anywhere, as we have seen massive growth over the last 2 years alone, esp with the Kingair this year, we are looking at having a full time Otter or Caravan next season, and you will soon see us similar in size to the Ranch @ Gardner NY. I just hope we get a LOA soon to streamline the process and help the IFR traffiic/jumper traffic workout smoother, I feel this year has been 100X better than last year when it came to that.

-Rick

Ajax,

What makes it tough for me is we do not pick you up till 5,000 feet and I drop from 10,000 so I only have about 5 or 6 minutes to get a hold of you guys, and the FAR's REQUIRE we make 2 way communications with you so I have to contact you, no matter how busy you are. I had one guy tell me last year if I called again he would violate me....I cant help it, I have to call, I wish we had a LOA because then it would simplify the process, I dont want a beacon code, I just want a 06B roger when I tell you I am out of 6 for 10 with jumpers, and then to call you a minute prior so you know and let me know if anyone is off HUO for COATE/SAX, then you get jumpers away and 2 min later I say goodbye when you get jumpers below 4k. Thats all I look for, I try to be short and sweet, I just have to cover my butt, this is a short term gig in my career path, and I am not gonna get violated for not making my calls. That all is also only 1% of the time the other 99% are smooth and simple, its just tough when I am flying 20 loads a day and in the air 10 hours, and talking to you guys each time.

Our radar coverage on the northwest quadrant off SAX VOR is very poor, and anything below 4000 we wont see. As long as you're climbing to the west of the airport you should be fine. The climbout route you've been flying over the last year seems to be fine. We have no issues with that. The main problem is that Mugzy can get extremely busy, and talking to the "jumper guy" is so far down our priority list, that we tend to just ignore it. Taking care of keeping aircraft apart, and running the TEB/MMU/CDW and EWR rwy 11 arrivals are more important for us.

Another issue is...Mugzy/Zeebo (technically that airspace is Zeebo's but its almost always combined with Mugzy) only own from 7000 and below. 8000 and above belongs to Liberty North (departure sector from another area that handles Coate, Neion, Haays, and Gayel departures). A lot of the controllers on that area don't really wanna bother with you because all they are working is fast moving high altitude aircraft, and they feel we should keep you since you're dropping over our arrivals (which kinda makes sense). The problem with this now switches to us worry about you getting runned over by one of their fast moving coate departures, or any high flying VFR 1200 we may not see due to our filter limits (see below).

The FAA dictates that controllers cant set their radar filter limits any lower than 1300 feet above their highest altitude allotment. That means if Mugzy is controlling 7000 and below, that our filter limits will probably be set at 8300. With the extreme busy nature of the NY metro airspace, going much higher than our required minimums means extra ground clutter, and when its really busy you don't need anything that makes your work harder. What that means is.....many times we may NOT see any aircraft coming at you above 8300 if the controller working Mugzy didn't change his filter limits when you checked in. I try to always swap mine, but when its really busy it may or may not be done. This means..you're really on your own above that altitude, and you're in somebody elses airspace. God forbids something happens, the first thing investigators are going to ask us is "why were you working this aircraft outside your airspace?" This means..many of us don't like having the extra liability burden, and that's why you see inconsistencies on getting handed off to 118.17 (Liberty North).

In any case, I know you guys are here to stay, but your operation is one of the many reasons why I hate working Mugsy, and why that position remains the most complex radar sector in our area.

[QUOTEHaha maybe it is the wolfman? and we can not help where we are located nor will we go anywhere. However down at our south jersey location they are right on the Philly Intl Cedar Lake arrival, and they put in an INT called JUMPP for when they are jumping to bring PHL ariv. 2 miles around crosskeys airport. I think the biggest thing is communication, I know when I fly I do not drop anyone when you guys advice traffic, and it is easy for us to see the IFR arrivals as they come the same route and your eyes get trained for it. I also visited your facility to get a better idea of how your end looks. I also think you can agree the climb I use is about as out of the way as we can get, as I have been using the same exact one for over a year now, and I am basically the only one flying the 182 this year, except days I was off work. As for an accident, yes it is always something to keep in mind, but the sky is also very large, and our jumpers are trained to also look before they jump and clear the airspace, and I know I hold when you say there is IFR traffic. One thing is for sure we are not going anywhere, as we have seen massive growth over the last 2 years alone, esp with the Kingair this year, we are looking at having a full time Otter or Caravan next season, and you will soon see us similar in size to the Ranch @ Gardner NY. I just hope we get a LOA soon to streamline the process and help the IFR traffiic/jumper traffic workout smoother, I feel this year has been 100X better than last year when it came to that.

-Rick
QUOTE]

No, I'm not Paul (not sure where you got the Wolfman nickname--we don't call him that)

I'll give you a hint. I'm one of the few that gives 2 advisories. One when you give me the minute prior, and another while in progress. :D

Its good to learn all this stuff, this is even more why we should have an LOA that clearly states we do not get Flight following at all. Our Kingair has the poor mans TCAS and we will soon even have it in the 182s. What I have found is that as long as by 7500feet I am northeast of Coate heading back toward Sussex it keeps me clear of 118.17 traffic. I know I never ever even touch the Shaft5 area, though to avoid wx we do get close sometimes. My big thing is I just want someone to say Roger when I make the calls to cover my butt, and have them just let me know if something is inbound off HUO, as I am required to do it. You guys are super busy and that makes is the biggest thing that makes this difficult, but I hope it gets more streamlined sooner, than have it get chaotic down the road when you have a twinotter dropping upto 24 bodys every 20min from 8am till 9pm on Saturdays in Aug.

Ajax,

Thanks for the time and for the heads up posting here. Just so happens that today we got (without asking) the ARD/MAZIE shortcut to PHL soon after departing EWR...it made a huge difference especially considering the conditions this afternoon. I have to say thanks, whoever it was! Must've been a slow Saturday :)

humm, was it on the evening? I worked departure on 2 different sessions, and handed off a couple that I coordinated the shorcut for....and yes, it was a slow evening, so coordinating that was no problem at all.