This will open a can of worms
 

This is going to be a loaded post no doubt, nevertheless I will ask anyway.

It seems that many pilots I have come in contact with recently are angry of about what is going on at Expressjet, specifically with the latest travel benefit change. It seems that no one is happy with the XJT ALPA leadership.

What will it take to vote out of ALPA and have our own in house union? It seems to me there is a conflict of interest between Continental ALPA and Expressjet ALPA.

I wonder also, if the Skywest pilots will be interested in merging all three pilots group if we have one in house union for all of them? would that serve us better?

Last but not least, what does it take to vote ALPA out like U.S. Airways did?

For me presonally I am not in favor of one or the other because I know very little information, hence this post. Now whether I would get answers that I could really learn from, but rather a bunch of angry replies, it is worth the shot at least.

This particular SkyWest pilot supports merging our seniority lists. I can't speak for anyone else though.

Does your ALPA leadership at XJT control your travel benefits?

If not, do you have anything in your CBA that stipulates specifics about travel benefits that the company is violating?

If not, what do people expect the union to do about something they have no control over?

Definitely agree with you as far as an existing conflict of interest goes, but I wonder if you, or a majority or your pilots, felt the same way when Expressjet was growing while mainline Continental was shrinking.

Please don't take that statement as a personal attack against you or your pilot group. The conflict of interest between regional and mainline companies is only bothersome to a pilot group when it begins to adversely effect said pilot group.

This, in my opinion, is ALPA National's biggest failure as an organization over the past few years.

I personally wouldn't characterize it as anger but more of distrust with the MEC. There may be some anger over rolling over on the one list issue but for me its more of distrust on what else they may roll over on in the future. The union had no say on pass travel since its not contractual. There was nothing much they could do other than what they did do and ask management to ask Continental for a reprieve.

It would take 50%+1 to vote out ALPA and go non-union or independent. The result of the vote would decide which. I personally don't see the conflict of interest. I want ALL branded flying at mainline just as the mainline pilots do as well. All of us in ALPA also want the safest and most secure industry as well. Therefore I don't see ANY conflict.

I think would would serve the industry better is for all of us to be ALPA or APA or IPA or SWAPA.

Seriously, how do we get this ball rolling?

I am not smart enough to find the data or know if it is even published somewhere but...

I have been gossiped to a number of times that at ASA we are allocated and spend more than we contribute to National. Not stirring the pot, just wondering if hard facts are out there?

How do you not see a conflict of interest? It's like a lawyer defending and prosecuting at the same time. Major airline pilots dues goto ALPA and some of those dues goto protecting the same regional airline jobs that ALPA says they are trying to take back to mainline...

Mainline pilots decide with their management what they will or will not fly. The leftover is negotiated by the regional MEC as to pay and QOL of those scraps. I don't see the conflict especially since I'd like to see all branded flying done by pilots on the mainline seniority list anyways. That's coming from a regional pilot.

I want to see all the flying done by mainline seniority lists as well. That doesn't mean that ALPA negotiators for regional airlines want that. I'd love to see XJT or Comair or any other ALPA regional tell their pilot group that they're all being furloughed because they got all their flying put back on mainline seniority lists.

Remember that your union negotiates ONLY with YOUR company. They have nothing to do with who does the flying just How it will be done.
Alpa is a tool. Anyone can purchase that tool the same as any other tool. Who ever buys that tool puts it to use as they see fit. One person uses it to build something, one uses the same to destroy something. So what's the tool for, building or destroying?

Let's also remember that the union is not to blame for a lot of stuff. We are! The MEC only had power from the line pilots. We can sit here and **** and moan about how they messed up but still we are the ones to vote them in and vote on issues the effect us. Don't blame. Get involved and actually make a difference.

Excellent post avi8tor. Agree 100%.

I think many peoples' gripes with ALPA National is that they don't provide any pushback or guidance as an organization. ALPA will happily take on a pilot groups' dues and in turn tell them that they need to get involved.

While I'll agree with you that ALPA is a tool that is only as useful when it is adequately used, I have to disagree with you that all the responsibility lies within the each individual pilot group.
Where was ALPA National when scope was being farmed out?

Where was there stance on that?

How come they didn't threaten to expel a pilot group that was willing to trade a a short-sited pay raise in exchange overall long-term industry longevity?

I have an assumption as to the answer for the third question, and I believe that is because ALPA National will happily take dues from ANY pilot group without any type of preconditions.
If a pilot group sprouts up tomorrow willing to fly any jet for a fraction of compensation or work rules that other pilots struggle under, will ALPA still happily support this group as their growth comes at the demise of another?
Speaks volumes for unity doesn't it???

The travel changes are just the tip of the iceberg of what we are angry about.

One List.

What else are you guys ****ed off about and what happened to your travel benefits?

Agreed. Unfortunately, XJT and Comair are furloughing because newer and cheaper regionals got all their flying.

ALPA regional negotiators do not decide what flying their regional does. They have absolutely NO say in the matter. Even if they wanted to give that flying back to mainline, they could NOT because it's not up to them. They only negotiate pay and work rules on flying that mainline negotiators would not or could not scope in. I don't see ANY conflict whatsoever at all, NOTHING.

Having an MEC officer get "hired" by management is a slap in the face to every pilot at xjt. The rest of the MEC is so disconnected from the average line pilot that they applaud this person for going over to management. Our MEC has proven through lack of communication, ignorant communication (calling us unprofessional for sick calls July 2010 and the above mentioned), and the constant barrage of information telling us how they caved to managements every whim that they do not represent the average pilot at XJT.

Heres the problem as I see it. Too many people are apathetic to what is going on. As riled up as you are there are probably 3 pilots to your one who could not care less what happens with our MEC. This is where we need our LEC's to come in. The LEC's are made up of line pilots who should be hearing their pilots opinions. If the LEC's inform and educate their respective pilots about the happenings at the MEC level I think more pilots would get involved. Those pilots then have to support the LEC in making a stand against the MEC.

I think change is coming. I like the reps at my local level and have hope that change will happen. I dont think running away from ALPA is the answer. I think ALPA has a lot to offer but having a weak, disconnected MEC is killing us. We need leadership from a line pilot who wont cheer-lead for management.

I dont want an email telling us they are upset at the loss of pass benefits. I want an email telling us they have stopped negotiating on a JCBA, SLI, and have frozen all talks over the AQP training until pass travel is settled. Not just settled but settled in a way that does not offend every pilot who has bent over backwards to provide a good product to CAL passengers.

Giving us 36 hrs to use our vacation passes in the next two weeks even though those passes dont expire till the end of 2012 is complete and utter BS. Giving us SA3 pass class on our own aircraft is completely useless due to the fact the CAL employees can simply burn one of their vacation passes and bump us. Putting us behind unaccompanied pass riders on CAL equipment while we are trying to get to work is one more poorly thought out rule. When we are traveling to move CAL passengers who is more important? Lastly this "manual fix" to move us from SA4C to SA3 on our own aircraft??? *** Why was this implemented when they couldnt even give us what they were offering. Why rush this poorly thought out, poorly implemented, and moral crushing program? Did our MEC answer this or did they give us an email patting our newest member of management on the back for his "years of service in our union."

The LEC is what makes up the MEC. The MEC officers don't even get a vote. They take direction from the local council reps. They are just administrators, the chairman being the spokesperson for the local reps' mandates.

What a great idea!! Vote out a union right when a merger is starting.

Why not give them a chance and see what the deal might look like?

I could be wrong but the MEC votes on TA's, MOU's, and LOA's negotiated directly with the company. The average line pilot or LEC rep doesnt get to vote on these. The LEC reps dont get a direct say at the MEC level.

It is my understanding that the LEC votes in the MEC officers and then has very little input (outside of commenting) on how the MEC conducts themselves until the next election. When C.M. went to management the MEC is the one who replaced that position. Correct me if i am wrong. I might have misunderstood what you were saying.

I believe there has been a huge disconnect between what the line pilot and our local reps want and what the MEC has implemented. The MEC is selecting people for positions on negotiating committees based on old friendships and not on background/ability. If you want to pass up someone who is qualified for the job and pick someone who is not that is your right as an MEC. When people ask "why did you make that decision" then you need to articulate why you made that choice. The response to the LEC and a line pilot who asked why was a simple "it was our decision."

These guys are playing clubhouse and electing best buds to important positions while there are qualified people for those positions. The MEC needs to be recalled yesterday. They tried the recall in IAH and most people who voted didnt understand why they would recall a chairman. I think people are starting to understand.

The MEC is comprised of the three officers who have no voting power, just speaking rights with the chairman running the meeting. The voting members of the MEC are the chairman and vice chairman of the local councils. The local council secretary treasurer also has speaking rights at the MEC but does not have voting rights just like the charter pilot representative coordinator had. It's the local council reps who vote on TAs, MOUs, LOAs, and resolutions. It's with resolutions that the MEC directs the officers and committees. It's the local council reps who have all the power if they choose to use it.

There is no could be about it. You are wrong.

As a former LEC status representative, I can tell you that the MEC officers do not vote. The local council reps give direction to the MEC and the local council reps are the ones who vote on the issues before the MEC. All the reps vote for the three (or four at large carriers) MEC officers. The reps vote on the replacement for any vacancy which occurs (such as the vacancy of this CM guy you reference). The reps also must approve the MEC Chairman's choices for the various committees. At the MEC level, it is ALL the reps say. The day-to-day operation of the MEC and office is handled by the officers as directed by the reps.

Having ALPA at Continental Express and Continental Airlines is like one lawyer representing the plaintiff and defendant.

It's pretty tough to read the ALPA magazine and see that Continental and United wish to do away with regionals.

USAirways-America West wasn't the first to kick ALPA to the curb, and they wont be the last.

XJT (ASA) is not furloughing, they're hiring.

I know, companies have hired then furloughed right away.

And what would you have different? You want all the flying to be stuck at the regional? You want to doom the rest of the people behind us to the crap we've had to put up with for the most recent history?

They let scope outta the bag with no idea what it would do. Now it's time to get it back. That's good for all of us.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/re...ion-manual.pdf

How do you whittle a duck figure?

Easy: Get a block of wood and carve away everything that does not look like a duck.

When you see in the magazine that UniCAL wants to do away the the regionals, are you interpreting that to mean that we want to put all of the regional pilots out of work? If so, you are sadly mistaken.

So much of the domestic flying has been farmed out to feeder carriers for the legacy carriers the future at mainline isn't as bright as it was. We want to bring that flying in house. Do you think that bringing that flying in house will happen with the current number of mainline pilots carriers have? NO. It will require hiring more pilots onto the seniority list. No one is looking to *******w the small-jet pilots. We want to protect and enhance our careers and give opportunities for all of you to be part of that.

after making my post I spoke to some ex-alpa respresentative about the issue and one important aspect they brought up is that if we vote ALPA out, we will have less funds available when we need them most during contract negotiantion. Along with some other things that ALPA offers.

As far as the issue of all flying to be done by CO/UA. Well, this came from a couple of pilots I spoke to that were at Express when the jets showed up, and it was actually also confirmed by one management pilot. Management initially offered the EMB 145 to mainline pilots and they turned it down! I am not sure if it was an ego thing, or maybe a pay issue, I actually even read a coment about a mailine pilot not carring to fly a small jet because the pay would be to low. Also, CO pilots were not interested in merging the seniority list between Express and CO. So now they want all the flying back? Yeah, of course I would love to be flying for CO and making more money, there is no doubt that any pilot at XJT would love to be fllying the EMB 145 for CO for more money, but what is the reality of it? Regionals will stay regionals and mainline will stay mainline and therefore I still think it is better for the Regionals to have their own representation.

EWRBLOWS, man you hit the nail right on the head. STOP ALLLL negotiation until the pass travel is fixed to our satisfaction!

And yes, our MEC Vice Chairman going to a management position was a big slap in the face to all of us.

Perhaps voting ALPA out now may not be the right move, but we need to get new leadership.

Here is a suggestion, ...deleted.....

There are over 2,000 pilots furloughed from United. If regional pilots were grouped in to mainline pilots, where would the furloughed pilots go......below the regional guys???

What does it matter who represents who? Does Mainline have any impact on your contract? No. Your contract is with your company and you negotiate it.

You finally get it. This has nothing to do with ALPA or whatever representative body you have...it has EVERYTHING to do with the quality of people you put in charge of your union and how much energy you yourself put behind them.

Alpa didn't elect your MEC, you did. You upset about what they've done? Do something about it. Get involved.

(meloveboeing, this isn't meant as an attack personally on you. Please don't take it as such. I used "you" in general terms to describe how things work. With your last statement, you (literally 'you' this time) seem to be catching the big picture)

may I interject as a former coex pilot? one who was so excited to get hired there in 00 but by 02 I loathed the place. I stuck around hoping for some PIC time which only took til 04. :rolleyes: my view of the industry was so tainted that a fedex guy offered to sponsor me in 05 and I declined. so I outright quit the airlines in 05 and never regretted it but glad Delta was scrapping the bottom of the barrel in late 07 because it was the one place I'd go and I'll comeback to that in the last sentence.

anyways yes we grew while cal shrunk but I upgraded junior to my newhire seniority and never complained about 600 furloughed cal pilots. well maybe about the ones with a bad attitude but there were far more i liked than didnt and I cant say that was always true of the know it all Captain that upgraded at 6-8 months. but 8 hr uncommutable 4-days, bitter bill, no cass, all of that sucked. still worked my tail off because i guess i had something to prove to the [insert cuss word] that looked down on us.

if you want to get rid of alpa there its long overdue. you'll have a mess on your hands but you already do.

but the thing about what cal is doing with scope. its needed for so many valid reasons.

there was a tremendous amount of sins from the past and a lot of it was just plain gluttony that manifested itself with the saying "they're paying their dues." its sins committed by mainline pilots that have you stuck where you are and not upgrading or moving out. its their fault, not yours.

you dont get to vote to scope them but they can scope you and thats all you need to know next time some moronic cal guy talks trash floats the notion that you need to scope yourselves because you can tell them to reread their own section 1 and scope their...

and if they shipped 100 735s to you tomorrow its still their doing. fly them, upgrade, apply and run away to somewhere that thinks people matter.

its worth getting to a major, its so much better. its not the same and had i known what i know now i'd probably never quit. stick it out or go get pic time and apply and go.

good luck.

Remember that way back when all this was going on, being discussed and decided, the majority of us weren't here or involved in that decision. The union was run by the scab cadre and the pilot group here at the time believed what management was selling (the small jets would be used to grow mainline at other cities eventually). The majority of those pilots are now gone since this was way back in 1996-1997 or are no longer running the union. A big portion of the seniority list either came from express type carriers who grew as a result of mainline pilots giving it away or being sold a bill of goods or are now pilots who realize the mistakes from back then.

Is it not possible to learn from mistakes of the past and correct them for the future? I came from a small-jet carrier to Continental. I saw what flying those small-jets does first hand. Now that I am here I want to make sure mainline pilots have job security (ask a UAL pilot) and that we enhance the careers for all current and future pilots to have mainline opportunities. As it stands today I would never recommend this industry to my children let alone anyone else I know.

Lets say that ALPA signs a contract at mainline that says "if (fill in the blank) happens / doesn't happen, the regionals have to park planes".

If you're at one of their ALPA regionals, ALPA has just negotiated against you. Have they not?