Just checked opentime for cr2ATL and counted 5 two day trips that were not naps. Apparently this month the company made tons of naps, who knows if that will continue.

As the others have said they definitely have a hard-on with 4 day trips. SH or CT will come into recurrent and profess that 4 day trips are the most efficient (actually SH said 5 days were, but they are not allowed). They will come up with the stupidest reasons why, and the reasons change every month. The best thing we can do is negotiate a specific trip mix, or raise the min day. The company will argue till they are blue the face how 3 day trips are inefficient, however flying a 4 day trip with a 40 hour layover in columbus, ga is somehow very efficient..................

Let me add that we now have the ability under the PBS LOA to drop PORTIONS of our trips. Let's say you are awarded 4 days and can't swap for something else. You can break up your own pairings, but you can't simply drop those portions into open time; they have to be picked up by another pilot.

OK ASEA types, "listen up"!. WE GET THAT! WE GET THAT ASA MANAGEMENT WILL BE RUNNING THE SHOW!!!! That's not the point of what I'm getting at. What I'm saying, that you're NOT hearing, is that although those 2 days may not have been in the "pool" for the initial bid, with line bid conflict they will become available in the pool. Read the end for a little more on this.

We suffer the same issue, 4 days are the most efficient for the company for a bunch of reasons. Staging, daily productivity, etc.

I just went into open time, IAH is showing 45 open 1 and 2 day pairings. Before the ILIW opened up, it was more (way more) than that.

Well, that's a good thing. XJT has had this for years. And to key on what I said above, we could advertise portions of trip for pick up as well. So a guy could advertise/drop days 3 and 4 of a 4 day to be home on night 2, THEN go back in and pick up a 2 day due to the massive amount of open time available. So now he has back to back 2 days instead of a 4 day. The amount of flexibility with the line bid system just can't be compared to the PBS one shot deal with limited flexibility later. Especially if what you bid for has to be altered for whatever reason. Family, change of plans, whatever.

I suspect that there are many at ASA who aren't even interested in learning how our line bidding works with our work rules to see if its better just as there are many at XJT who aren't interested in learning if the ASA PBS system under their work rules either.

So far, from what I have learned is that the ASA PBS system with their work rules does allow some degree of consecutive days off as our system and work rules but that the flexibility is NO WHERE NEAR what ours allows. But it does sound like with their PBS system and work rules they have WAY MORE flexibility than their old system and therefore they think that it must be more flexible than our system.

As of right now, even if I concede their vacation bidding is on par with ours, I still feel that our system and work rules are way superior than their PBS and work rules.

The thing of it is, that I doubt the joint contract will be their rules or ours. It will be a whole new set of rules so all of this comparison may be moot anyways.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. It sounds like you really like the new system which is good. The issue I'm sort of worried about is the company making everything look great for the next year or so to entice XJT pilots to vote for PBS, and then when it suits them, they can squeeze the pilot group to get the savings that they want by manipulating the pairings. I think the only way most of use will vote for PBS will be if ALPA has a guaranteed say in the the pairing construction. Otherwise I'm still probably a no vote. We've got a lot to learn and plenty of time, so hopefully we will come to a conclusion that is good for everyone. Just to let you ASA guys know, if for some reason XJT pilots voted against PBS, you guys would be very happy with our current line bid process. So it really will be a win-win situation for y'all if something was to happen. Thanks for the feedback.

Historically at ASA this is not the case. Can you trade a 4 day for a 2 day at XJT? At ASA you can only trade down 1 day.

On our system, if you have a trip conflict with something, it drops the WHOLE trip, not the conflicting portion. This is why you wouldn't see a bunch of two days pop up. Anything else you would like to know about ASA or PBS system? I think once you look at it more you'll see it's a nice way to bid. You can fear what management is going to do all you want, at least with this you control the month not them.

Yes, if fact you can trade two 4 days for a single 4 day dropping an entire 4 day trip. You can trade two 4 days for a ONE day trip dropping 7 days off your schedule. Or any combination thereof. As long as you don't go below the "trading floor" (usually 60 hours) it will let drop whatever as long as the coverage is there. Even that can be fixable with a simple advertisement. The LIW's are highly fluid/dynamic. Just because it wouldn't execute on the first try, keep trying as when guys pick stuff up if drives the reserve coverage back up.

I think if you dealt with XJT's system, you'd see it's a nice way bid/control/manipulate as well. I''ll say it again, the ASA PBS system SEEMS to be pretty good, especially compared to what you guys had. But remember, everything is relative. Because we have a lot of control as well, NOT them. We don't have to "fear" management at all. We can say "alright, you wanna had me a crap sandwich? I'll EASILY fix that in the LIW's"

I think the XJT guys need to remember that it is not what we piolts decide to pick that we magically are going to get! It's not whose item we pick, like ASA's bidding or XJT's. It's what will be NEGOTIATED with management. We can "pick" the World's best ever bidding andscheduling system that ever pilot back flips over. Getting it in the JCBA is a totally different animal. Also, anything better than the cost number that they have now must be compromised somewhere else. A negotiation comes down to give and take. Dumping PBS will cost the pilot group elsewhere. Also, Skywest/ASA management will never allow the dumping a 4 day for a 1 day, and certainly won't pay someone the original value to do so. Also, thy don't run enough reserves to ever have enough coverage to do so. They will just make EVERY DAY a red arrow day!

Agree with all this.

I think what the ASA guys need to realize is, guess what? XJT guys have ALSO been through multiple negotiation cycles and understand the game. XJT guys have ALSO been through a concession. Refresh my memory, when was the last concession cycle at ASA? I'm not talking your downgrades/furloughs a while back, I'm talking about the cutting of pay and/or workrules. Because as it is now, accepting the ASA CBA as it is now is a concession. That concession will be for the majority of pilots of the combined list. So who's gonna have more votes when it comes down to accepting a JCBA that might be concessionary? Jerry is too far into this thing to back out know. Contrary to what the ASA pilot who went off the reservation on FI thinks, Jerry wants this thing done ASAP to start seeing the savings of eliminating the redundancies that exist. So dare I say, the pilots have a slight bit of leverage this time around. Which rarely happens.

I'll extend the SAME offer to you as I've done for guys ASA pilots on FI, as well as our message board. I'll gladly do a head to head bullet point comparison of the ASA and XJT CBA's for the purpose of showing where both are strong, and both are weak. Especially the hours of service, scheduling, and compensation sections. It's funny, I have yet to see a single ASA pilot take me up on that offer.

Why on earth would they? NOBODY has said that an XJT pilot trading down his line in the LIW's get's pay protected. The pilot takes the associated credit loss with trade. Nobody has said otherwise, here or anywhere else.

And you guys aren't paying attention. There is a limited amount of positive reserve coverage at the beginning of the LIW's. But when guys start picking stuff up, it drives the coverage of the negative days to positive so that OTHER guys can start trading down/dropping. The "red arrow" thing isn't nearly as much as a big deal under the XJT system as it is the ASA system.

I think the point is that it's either going to be PBS or line bidding, one or the other. I guess you can come up with something in between but it'll be more like line bidding than PBS in that case.

Also, as far as reserves, they'll staff the airline based on the ratified joint contract. Sure, they can short staff the airline but they can do that with whatever bidding system prevails.

The 2 day trips will be there and will be awarded in seniority order via PBS. All of those golden trips that senior crewmembers get and then have dropped due to conflict at XJT will be awarded at ASA via PBS because the senior crewmember can't bid on any conflicting pairings. So really, many people won't have to trade trips after schedules come out because they will have been awarded the trips they really want by PBS.

Ok, that spurns another question. Non ATL based pilot has PC, PBS won't award a trip on a training date, is that correct?

If you'll forgive me to assume that it is, how is the pilot paid? Is there a min per day, or is it a training pay credit?

If an XJT pilot bids a 4 day, or a 2 day over the training event, the pilot will be protected for the trip value. So if they had to drop a high value 2 day worth 13-14 hours, pilot gets that 13-14 hours pay credit.

Edited to add;

As you say, under PBS the 2 day would not be given to the senior pilot due to conflict, so it goes to the next pilot down the list with the same preferences and no conflict. Under line bidding, a 4 day may be broken up, creating a 2 day that will be in the LIW. A junior pilot that could not hold either with PBS OR line bidding would now be able to grab those trips.

So do it.
In reality, arguing over whose contract is better is irrelevant. The JCBA CNC knows what they want to achieve and will work toward it. After that, we'll vote. I don't really see how message board politics changes that.

You are correct. We are now moving to AQP and after Feb, everyone on their annual PC will do AQP. That is a 4 day process which will end up being a 5 day at least for those that don't live where the sims are. You get min day for a day you only DH, then training is paid at 4 hours/day. The really sucky thing is this is preassigned activity therefore you cannot bid to conflict. Also, this 5 day ordeal is worth 19.86 hours. Something else that needs to be corrected.

Wow, I'm an idiot. I didn't even see what you guys were saying about conflicting trips! Sorry about that. But you are correct that PBS will not award a trip that conflicts with other events on your schedule and your ability to swap will be greatly reduced. You have to consider, though, that PBS is one giant initial open time pot where you are more likely to get what you want the first time around and not have to swap later. If PBS awards you a few 2 days and a few 4 days, you'll only have to worry about swapping a few trips instead of the whole month. If you were awarded a line under line bidding with ALL 4 days and tried to swap out with the conflict trips that dropped into open time, your success would be rather low because of ASA's "red arrow day" conflicts. I actually prefer the PBS conflict feature, and here is why:

I like to work Monday through Thursday commutable 4 days. Next month, I have AQP that runs Wednesday through Saturday. Had we still been using the line bidding system, I would have been awarded a 4 day on the same week that I have AQP. The Wednesday and Thursday portion would have dropped into open time, but I'd still be left with a 2 day on Monday and Tuesday which would have made for 6 days of work in a row. No thank you!

With PBS, I just elected to not bid ANY trips the week of my AQP. Now I work a 3 day Mon-Wed during the first week of February, and then don't go back to work until the following Wednesday for AQP. That gives me 6 days off that I would not have had under line bidding. After AQP, I resume my normal weekends off, commutable trips. I was able to get a 3 day starting Tuesday after AQP, so I have 2 days off between training and flying and still get 3 days off the following weekend. To clarify, my schedule is like this:

3 on, 6 off, 4 AQP, 2 off, 3 on, 3, off, 4 on, 3 off, 4 on

Under a line bid, if the guy got a couple 4 days and the rest 2 days, who says he wants to trade everything anyway? The LIW gives you ability to adjust/tweak your WHOLE schedule, or just tiny portions.

I'm not sure how many times we have to repeat this. The LIW is a fluid and dynamic thing. Guys are trading, dropping, and picking up CONSTANTLY. This also causes the coverage go from negative to positive, allowing MORE dropping. AGAIN, I'LL REPEAT IT. If it doesn't drop on the first attempt, just sit back and be patient, and try it again.

If the AQP is a 5 day event counting a position/DH, it would only work for IAH based pilots. XJT CAN'T build 5 day trips, against the CBA. Our company has recently run into this road block with our AQP program. A reserve pilot can be on a 4 day and be modified in to a 5 day, but that's a whole different deal. They can put a 3 day next to a 2 day, but thats a whole different deal as well. So a 5 day pairing is what they'll be for the non IAH based pilots. Also, XJT pilots can only do recurrent training what would have been normal work days, unless the pilot specifically requests otherwise. And if so, get's paid above guaranty for doing so.

Its not a 5 day event. Only 4. He was saying that they may DH you to the place where the sims are a day early. ASA can't build 5 day "trips" either, but nothing in there about it having to do with training. Does it specifically say they can't build 5 day ANYTHING at XJT?

And that would then make it a 5 day event, possible 6 depending on the sim slot. For the majority of XJT (non IAH based), that's what it will be.

Yes. Of course, it can be "modified", but it can't be built from the get go that way. When a pilot that is not IAH based and goes to upgrade training, of course he can then do the 5 days. But that's a different section. Again, our MEC/company are running into an issue as for a non IAH based pilot, the recurrent training event is considered a "pairing" for construction purposes.

The fact that conflicts get thrown into the ILIW is what gives our pilots flexibility. The guys that couldn't have held day trips and two days in the initial bid could now pick them up or trade for them. If we get stuck with a trip or more we don't like, we don't have to worry about our "ability to swap will being greatly reduced."

Also, circumstances may change from when you bid. Our system allows you the opportunity to make changes. Or to simply trade for a better trip if one is available in open time. Our equivalent of "red arrows" doesn't really come into consideration until the SLIW. And even then, we have BD/WD trading capabilities.

As for training, if you were bidding in your example of your training event, you would bid your normal Monday through Thursday line. After you are awarded that line, they would drop one of those trips and replace it with four days of training AND pay protect you for the value of the original trip and therefore protect the original line value of your awarded line.

I honestly don't see how your PBS is more flexible or better for us as it is now.

Nothing can be built to 5 days. I think they can build reserve line with more than 4 consecutive days of reserve. At XJT, they cannot force you to train on days off. So DH on the day before or after is the problem at XJT. We can volunteer to train on days of but its paid at 150%.

I guess what I'm saying is that given the past interpretation of our contract by the company. Unless the contract actually says something like "No pilot will be required to be scheduled for any event, i.e. training, or no pilot will be required to work more than 4 days without 1 calender day off."
The company will say that because you are not on a trip they can use you for 5 days.
Honestly this is probably a moot point. They'll just DH you on day 1 and out on day 4.

I fully understand what you are saying but all of it is predicated on the way your lines are built right now. I promise you that with ASA in control of line construction, you're quality of life will decline significantly. 85% or more of our open time swaps were denied under the line bidding system because of low reserve coverage (line holders don't count in their stupid coverage formula so it was not "fluid and dynamic" at all), and you'll never see a line that has a mixture of 2 and 4 day trips, so yes, you'd have to swap the whole month if you wanted 2 days.

If XJT management were to remain in control of line construction, I'd be 100% in favor of dumping PBS. With ASA in control, line construction and open time is terrible and I'd never want to go back.

And I fully understand what you're saying. But let me give you 2 examples to possible help you better understand the points;

1) After the close down of branded in Sept 08, the lines/pairings went to absolute crap. But as myself (and others) KEEP repeating is this. We could ALWAYS make our lines better via the LIW's

2) During the reign of the green lantern, same thing. I fact, he even decided to shut the scheduling chair out of the pairing construction process. As a result, the lines/pairing went to crap. Again, we could ALWAYS improve that via the LIW's

Now, lets flip that coin around. If ASA management wanted to do nothing but build crap pairings and only a fraction of the pilots get their preferences met while the rest get garbage, what recourse will there be to improve their lines? FACT, PBS eliminates open time, PERIOD.

And I'll repeat it AGAIN. Under the line bid, tons of pairings become available that weren't there in the initial bid. Whether they be 1 days, 2, days, 3 days, or 4 days.

So even if ASA built all the pairings, the pilots would STILL have the ability to improve their awards under the XJT's system. Can that be said about PBS?

My previous point is that ASA purposely makes this very concept overwhelmingly difficult and severely restricts your ability to improve your schedule once it is awarded, thus making PBS a much better tool in my opinion. Would you mind telling us about your LIW processes a bit more in depth? I'm sure our open time process was far different than yours so it would be interesting to see what your contract language is in that regard. I would never want to go back to our previous open time system, so if yours is significantly better, I'm all ears.

There is literally a crap ton of information that I'll have to type out to try to explain how primary bid and ILIW, and secondary bid/ SLIW's work.

Bottom line, we don't have "red arrow" crap. We have negative coverage days that will prevent a pilot from moving days, but since guys are constantly picking up and what not it's as I've said, fluid and dynamic. Also it can be beat via our "bad day-worse day" trading language. If you are just trading same day trips for other same day trips, it just goes through.

Also, the WHOLE system is automated, the ONLY time it requires you interfacing with a scheduler has to due with an IT limitation and the software. Everything else is automatic, real time, first come first served. It's not processed in a seniority order. Let's say I have mon-thurs 4 days that I don't like. I can simply place ALL those 4 days in the left of the trade column. in the right, I can insert the 4 days I want. When the window opens, just click and it'll trade. All this of course is barring another guy that may have been quicker on the trigger and/or has a faster connection speed.

Now, as I stated in a post that got deleted for some reason. Depending on the coverage, and what's happening, I could place a 2 of my 4 days in the left column, and ONLY 1 4 day in the right section and execute the trade. If the coverage is there, it'll drop the 2 four days and give me the ONE four day I selected. I just dropped an entire 4 day trip. Guys that are fast/savvy enough can put 2 4 days in the left column, and trade them down for a day trip. In this case, the guy the dropped 7 days of work. The only limit here is that you don't trade below the "floor", which is usually set at 60 hours. At that point if you're still trying to reduce your line, simply advertise and that can take take it below 60.

And as myself, and others KEEP having to repeat. A lot of those pairings NEVER existed on the initial bid, they come from conflict, etc. Imagine how much open time where is in the ILIW when you have 500+ hard lines, IAH circa summer 2006. That's A LOT of vacation, training, transition, and attrition conflict in the open time pool for the sharks to feed on.

Ya I think that your idea of the ILIW being the same as open time is what is confusing many. The company publishes lines. The pilots bid. The company awards the lines in seniority order and then drop any trips or portions of trips for transition, far, or vacation conflicts. They will also drop a trip or portion of a trip for training. In other words, they can only train you on days that you originally had a trip and pay protect you for the value of that trip. All these trips and portion of trips are put in the ILIW. The "coverage" is adjusted to +4 for all but 8 days of the month. The window opens for 24 hours for each base and seat for pilot to trade drop pickup to their hearts desire. Even if the company built 100% 4 day trips, there are always trips that are broken up and dropped due to the conflicts. When the window closes the company takes the left overs and figures out how many relife/conversion lines they can build to use up all thats left. They publish phase 2 with the X number of relief lines and reserve lines for the remainder of the pilots. If you are senior enough you get a relief line and get to request their preferences. Kind of like PBS. The remaining pilots are awarded reserve lines. Once those are published, the SLIW opens for any trades drops pickups. Its only in the SLIW where coverage matters. But even then, you can almost always trade trips or reserve days with our BD/WD trade provision.

The worst thing is we at ASA don't have anything called a "red arrow" in our contract either. We have "restricted days" which are supposed to be limited to 4. HOWEVER!!! (And this is why the EXACT wording in your XJT thing about not working over 4 days comes into play) ASA management created "red arrow" days which are days where reserve coverage is below whatever formula they are using. (sounds like a restricted day right?) When there is a red arrow day, the system WILL NOT allow you to swap, even day for day. They are not calling them "restricted days" and there for this is not a violation to have more than 4 of these in any month. What has been done about this??? NO IDEA. ALPA has been very quiet other than to say they are working to address the "red arrows".
So unless it is black and white, clearly written, and enforceable, ASA (Skywest) management will find a way around it.

Oh yeah... In any month there are about 3-5 days that AREN'T red arrow days.

If you read the contract though --


Management can designate as many restricted days as they like, they just have to inform the union. As in so many other situations, our contract language is weak and open to interpretation.

I'm curious, what kind of reserve coverage does ExpressJet usually have? I would think that a system that withholds large amounts of open time, while providing increased schedule flexibility for lineholders, would need a lot of pilots to be on reserve who would normally be lineholders.

Unfortunately our contract allows the company to manipulate the min level numbers so as to make it so that there is no coverage and prevent any trip drops. But we can always do a bad day worse day trade. In fact, when the company tried to zero out all the coverage numbers, when someone would pick up a trip, someone else would do a bad day worse day trade all their trips for a day trip on that sole positive coverage day.