Why aren't we paid for duty time?
 

Per diem aside, how come pilots aren't pushing to be compensated for their time at work, instead of flight time? Wouldn't being paid by the duty hour force the airlines to produce more efficient schedules, instead of inserting hours of sits throughout the day? It seems to me like we only get paid for roughly 50 or 60% of the time that were actually at "work".

We are paid by duty time in some cases. They are called trip and duty rigs. Most regionals don't have them, except Air Wisconsin and a few others. It is something you would have to bargain for in the contract and most likely would be the one thing management would not give into. I'm not saying its not possible but good luck getting some 21 year old who only plans on staying at the regionals for 3 years or less to care about something like that. That's not even enough time to see the expiration of a contract in most cases.

I'm on a 3 day trip right now worth 13.5 block and credited at 18

"Why aren't we paid for duty time?"

A majority of the regional pilots don't have the leverage (or unity) to get it negotiated. For now, there are still a stack of resumes of people willing to work and not get paid for duty time.

The reason that has never changed is because of how it affects the senior pilots who normally run unions (or pilot associations).

Payscales are skewed to favor senior pilots, that's obvious.

The current pay for block, but not duty also favors senior pilots if you think about it...

Look at two trips:

1. 5 Legs, 8 hours block, with 4 hours of non-block duty time (pre/post duties, turns, swaps, airport appreciation) for a 12 hour duty day.

2. 2 legs, 8 hours block, with 1.5 hours non-block duty time for 9.5 hours duty.

Which trip is going to go more senior?

#2 of course, because it is easier, shorter day, and pays more per duty hour.

Here's the kicker: Any realistic scheme to change pilot hourly pay from block to duty is going to require a reduction in hourly rates across the board. This will effectively take money away from the senior guys who hold sweet high block/duty ratio trips. Since senior guys run the union, it's just not one of their priorities. Personally, I'm all for it.

Rigs can prevent truly unjust block/duty ratios at the bottom end, but they aren't going to provide as good of a deal as simply bidding for trip #2.

A contract with a minimum credit per day can help... if the minimum is high enough.

I think the point is..you're on a 3 day trip..so probably close to 50 hours TAFB. Why are you then essentially paid for only 36% of your time?

I'd take $20 a duty hour. I flew 6 legs today, blocked (after delays) at almost 8.5 for a whopping $215..for 13 hours of actual duty. If i were paid a lesser rate (20 vs 25.46) for the full 24 hours I was "on duty: today that'd be $480

Even if I'm only paid the 20 for the time I'm flying..and the overnight is still the per diem (1.85 or so). That'd still be 280 and change for the day (13hrs@20 + [email protected]).

What's better for us?

vs.

What's best for the company?

who do you think is gonna win? :p

Straight pay for TAFB is unlikely, most other professions which involve travel don't pay you directly for hotel time.

At some level you have to accept that hotel time is the nature of the beast. But trip/daily rigs are useful to prevent long overnights from being unproductive overnights.

Why aren't we paid for duty time? Probably for the same reason:

Long haul truckers are paid by the load
Fishermen are paid by the pound
Tow truck drivers are paid by the tow
Repomen are paid by the vehicle
Bounty hunters are paid per head

Most truck drivers are paid by the mile. Unless it is an owner/operator.
I'd be happy to be paid by the pound.
Refer to 1.
I am not even equatable to a repoman.
Bounty hunter... really?

Keep in the transportation realm. Barring owner/operators drivers get paid by mile or time.

A good start would be getting paid for the time preflighting the aircraft.

Why not block + 30 minutes of pay for each leg or something like that? Its a start and more accurately recognizes the work you have to do. Two 4 hour legs and Four 2 hour legs pay the same, but are drastically different amounts of work.

I consider preflight prep to be one of the most important and critical phases of the flight, and you're not paid a dime for doing it.

+1 I'd take 20 an hour instead of 30 an hour if they paid duty. Honestly it's ridiculous, it's hard to believe a bunch of otherwise intelligent guys fall for this crap. Be AT the airport for 12 hours, but due to some strategic sits, you fly 6 hours.. and get paid 6 for 12 effectively 15 dollars an hour not 30. Other jobs that might pay 15 dollars an hour... nurses assistant, secretary, and a myriad of other jobs that require significantly less training.

But lets not forget the carrot, someday in the distant future, you will hold 20 days off and make 300k... of course if you just made 60k for the entire 30-35 years of your career in net earnings you probably outearn those 300k years... assuming you can get to fedex and upgrade and in the mean time no unions give more wages back, and you can work the system appropriately.

The unfortunate thing is we really can't judge how we did until the end of our careers. Also no data is available which would be relevant towards seeing what percentage of guys starting at a regional eventually make it to a senior major airline captain.

But yes, the moral of the story is we should be paid duty, and we should open our eyes to how much we give up to fly planes.

I worked for an air ambulance company. We were paid to be Available. On the other hand, many regional contracts are Pay for Departure. Each flight is one unit.

My point was, we are Piece Workers. We are paid when we complete a unit. The more units (or flights), the greater the pay.

If you want to be paid for down time, management will surely agree to it.... as long as the total is less. I cannot think of any worker, including the truckers, who get paid while they sleep.

I am all for maximizing my income which is why I supported a minimum credit per day. It forces management to be more efficient. You only want me to fly one hour, okay, pay me for four.

And when a long sit is still in the best interest of the company, fine, give me a hotel room for anything over, say, four hours. The reality is there WILL be lines which require sits. I just want to make them expensive enough that management will minimize them.

Also, the down side of trip rigs, is since they are paying while we sleep, the goal for management in making lines is to limit rest periods to 9:01. Not so bad for a two day, but horrible for every night of a four day.

You say you would be happy to be paid by the pound. Okay, so when the plane is empty are you willing to fly for free? .

Doesn't Cape Air pay duty hour?

Yes, on the 402 side.

There is a simple answer to this..... some jackass decades ago decided it would be a good idea to get paid for only our flight time... This is one of the only professions in the world where we pretty much get raped for the amount of time we actually have to be at work and labor laws basically ignore.

For those of you trying to defend this you obviously have no clue or just want to keep throwing out excuses because you think we would make less if that was the case. Most of us average 12 hour days and get paid for about 6 of it.

Keep in mind I am not talking about getting paid for down time in hotels. Just for the hours we are at work.
I know it will never change but this is by far one of the stupidest decisions ever made in the pilot profession.

Once you are senior enough to hold productive lines, you will not want duty hour pay as it will be a paycut.... about halfway up the list should do it... maybe more at regionals.

A view from the non 121 world... Just simplify the whole damn thing. 1st yr FO you get 20K a year. 2nd yr FO you make 38K. etc... You are expected to fly a credit of about 80 to 99 hours a month. You get paid a set salary like an "exempt" salaried employee at any corporate job. Keep it simple/stupid way of doing things. Then you don't have to worry about when to release the parking brake and start the clock.

That's what minimum monthly guarantee is.

And I don't see how that would stop anyone from worrying about on time performance (releasing the parking brake). You would still need to be out at the appropriate time..

I can speak only for SkyWest, but even the lowly RJ FOs are getting paid roughly in this manner. We get paid one hour for each two hours of duty, and since FOs (at least the ones not on first year pay) roughly make $35-40 per hour, it works out to nearly $20 per hour for each hour of duty time. That's what makes the standups or continuous duty overnights work.

And of course, since non-union SkyWest is riding on the coattails of union contracts, I'm sure it works in a similar fashion at other carriers as well.

If a salaried employee works 40 hrs a week or 2080 hours a year for a set amount, say 40K a year, there is no punching in or punching out on a time clock. If they work 30 hours one week and 50 hours another week it does not matter. They get paid 40K a year. No pay for overtime and no deduction for under-time. Get rid of the min guarantee, the credit per trip, etc. Just set a salary and pay it. It's just a different mindset and model for the airlines. The airline executives working in the offices that own an airline get paid a salary, you should too. I'm just saying.......

I see the min guarantee as a salary that is overtime eligible. A flat standard salary gives no opportunity to earn extra income for additional work.

Therefore I fail to see the benefit of a flat salary..

Just my .02

Does your CEO get a flat salary?
How about the VP of HR? Director of Ops? The Chief Pilot?
Why aren't they hourly if its a better deal?

There is no benefit to a LOW base salary, but a high one is quite desirable.


Cape Air does pay duty time. Which enhances safety to a remarkable degree. With no economic penalty to delay or call off a trip due to weather or potential mx issue, you're much more comfortable making the safe call. One cruddy day the CEO of another Hyannis 402 operator offered his pilots a $100 bonus to operate. Suddenly the conditions were not too bad to fly in anymore.

Trip rigs were once the answer to the obvious inequity of long duty days combined with low credit flying. I think that amongst most regional airlines they are the stuff of legend. A 2:1 daily rig would go a long way to forcing trips to be more efficient, or paying you for your time.

Despite someone's observation, flying is not piecework. We are trading our time - our Life Capital if you will - for their money. You can never, ever get any more of yours (and you never, ever know when its going to run out) so make sure you are getting enough of theirs in the deal.

"our Life Capital"
We are tools, machines, mules. We are labor, Skilled labor yes, but labor just the same. To the company, our lives are only worth what we can provide them and how much they can be sued if we die. What is the difference between Chuck Yeager and a barely-pass-the-checkride pilot? Nothing. We both are "qualified" and do the same work.

Actually, flying IS piecework. We move X tons or our plane has X seats. We get paid more per ton or per pax: don't believe me, check out the pay rates at most (if not all) of the legacies and majors. They pay more for aircraft that can carry more. Is flying a 777 significantly different from flying a CRJ? No. Both take off, fly a route, and land. The DIFFERENCE is one carries a great deal more responsibility: 450 pax means nine time the number of lawsuits versus a 50 pax jet. That's why the guys that fly heavy iron are paid more. (However, if you think that is wrong, change the contracts. I would be thrilled to fly my Saab and make the same as an B747 pilot)

So, Rob, assume for a moment ALL your company's flying was done by mainline employees. Since we all do the same work, would you be willing to fight for my pay to be the same as yours despite the fact you carry 10 times as many pax?

Couldn't post a new thread, but here is my question

Part 135 Commuter AOC (NOT intrastate):

Is it legal for a company to require a pilot to show 1hr prior the departure and not pay for this duty time? Or would this be illegal? If you have have an argument legal references would be appreciated.

Is there a union contract involved? and would this company fall under the Railway Labor Act?

I've asked many, many pilots about this and nobody ever had a satisfying answer. When and how did getting paid only for flight hours develop? Was it like that for the PanAm clipper pilots? The Northwest Orient Stratocruiser drivers? The Braniff guys? Was it after Deregulation. I'd love to know the history of how this came about, among many other things, so I know who to be annoyed at.

Read "Flying The Line" parts I and II.

No.

Filler.
Filler.

Yes, it can be legal. But one would have to know the pay scheme. I know a 135 operator that pays whether or not you fly. Basically, a salary. A person could be "on duty", usable by the company, for 11 hours a day, 14 days straight.

The ignorance in this thread illustrates beautifully why pilots are raped in the wallet and in life, and will continue into the foreseeable future. Staggering really, the collective ignorance sucks the electrons back down the interwebz connection.

One CEO once said that he thinks getting paid more to fly more people is wrong.
So...... A 19 seat captain should get paid the same as a 777 captain?

Kinda like trump. CEO's open their mouths and garbage comes out.

Just my .02, worth exactly what you paid for it, but...

I don't think an 'insert small aircraft' pilot should be paid the same as an 'insert large aircraft' pilot, UNLESS they are working for the same company.

If I am #1 on a seniority list, why should I take a pay cut to fly any aircraft in the inventory? We are in a seniority based business, and although you can be carrying 50 or 300 people behind you, you aren't directly effecting the bottom line of the company. If I would rather fly one hour shuttle flights all day why should that change my paycheck as the #1 pilot?

Which is why I advised them to read "Flying The Line" Parts I & II. People still read as evidenced by web boards...comprehension I suppose is another matter all together.

ExpressJet is one of those companies. On the ASA side we get 3:52 for min day, paid for 1 of every 2 minutes on duty up to 12 hours, after that we get paid 1 for 1. At the end of the day you get the greater of what you flew or duty rig.

That should be industry standard. I intend to read Flying the Line, but it'd be nice if certain questions could still be answered in the meantime without a dismissive "go read XXXXX book."