ACARS logic
 

Id just like to get input from people at all airlines about OUT or PUSH times. Our "management" at ****mont has decided to use 50 feet of A/C movement to get the time started. Now they have the gull to complain about originating flights being 1-5 minutes late.

Does anyone other than ****mont and PSA go off movement? From all my jumpseating over the years I've only noticed doors shut/brake release.

Thanks.

So they're not recording time as flight time where you're operating an aircraft towards your totals? The FARs define it as moving under your own power for the purpose of flight. You guys taxi out of the gates a lot. Those 50 feet fall under the FAA definition of flight time and better be logged for at least legality sake. You could all be busting 30/7, 100/mo, 1000/yr and not knowing it.

When did piedmont get acars? When i use to fly for them you had to call them in.

as a former ****monster, I was pleased to learn that here at **** - our ACARS starts for pay/dot as soon as the door is closed.

First that I have heard of that logic. Our acars is main cabin door closed and Peking break off for about a second.

That's what I was wondering. The performance numbers must have tanked since that started. It used to be "On time and overblock" everytime.

Oh the joys of computing.....

1 or 0

Who holds the 50 ft tape measure? Does going back 50 count or do you have to be moving forward (under your own power) or can it be a tug. Maybe 25 back 25 forward would do it. If they spin you, can you use the outside wing tip travel? So many things we can think about and discuss on one of those 1 hour flights -- or was that a 56 minute flight?

Continental added movement too. We were releasing brakes and not leaving right away due to more bags, ramp contral, etc. Sure they will be late more, but its worth it not to pay the pilots.

DAL and UAL have been squeezing us over OOOI times for a while now. They have been tasking people to watch us when we actually make it out, and when we call for the push, and comparing all of the connection/express carriers. I have heard rumors of correlating wheel movement but that has not come to fruition yet. The stink of it is that we are working when the aircraft is fully loaded, waiting for ground to let us push. If there is an emergency we will be held accountable. Our ratings will be at risk, and we will have to answer for all of our actions with the aircraft. The fact that we haven't been allowed to push yet is total garbage. A 30 minute gate hold for deice and we will be back and forth talking to company, deice, and the pax -working. Take it from the perspective of the FA's too. They're doing their announcements and serving first class, yet they aren't getting paid for any of that. This kind of thing needs to stop right now. When you are using my rating, the rating that I paid for and I earned, you pay me. You hired me for the rating, when it is in the balance I should get paid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaLzwMBHMps

soon2bfo.....niiiice icon!

We have this thing called Tamdar (aka: Scamdar, Damdar, Pick-Pocket). Of course ****mont didn't spend any money on this....it collects weather data for some company and it has GPS. I think that's how it does the 50 feet. In time is triggered by the door though, so it does have that capability. Bunch of scumbags running this dump!

Yeah my PDT friend told me the same thing about your TAMDAR. I feel really bad for you guys especially when you have to wait to push for de-icing out of LGA. :(

Amen brother! Should be part of 121 regs if you ask me. Something to the effect of "A working pilot's certificate shall be free from jeopardy if said pilot is not on the clock". Period. You're gonna leave me holding the bag, then you better be effing paying me!

And for the record, at XJT OUT is based on all doors closed and brake off. IN for DOT is based on first door open (usually bag door) and for pay it is based on main cabin door open. Sometimes the company (UAL/CAL?) have been known to block crews back in if they don't push within a few minutes of OUT time.

Can you amend your times through dispatch?

I used to work for PSA and I was the guy who figured out the GPS circuit breaker trick. Though I didn't use it more than few times for multiple reasons reasons.

The CBA states the pilots start getting paid at first movement. The first step in changing the ACARS logic would be to approach management with an LOA. Perhaps they should have negotiated for it when the show times were adjusted.

If you're stuck waiting for ramp to allow you to push back have the ramper push you back 5 feet and pull you back to the original location, that usually trips it.

can u guys get the tug to push u back a little, trip the time then?

CAL added movement for DOT purposes, but as of now we still get paid based on all doors closed and brakes released. That's what CCS will show. The internal FLIFO system used to show flight status on the public website and mobile devices uses aircraft movement to trigger that. Why do you think rampers will sometimes ask if they can move us a bit to get an out time? We may be "out" on our OOOI page FOR PAY PURPOSES but their screens don't show us out until we start getting pushed. That's why the company inserted that GSI field in the lower corner and why we get a GSI delay prompt later in flight if the OUT and GSI time differ by 2 minutes or more. The company wants a reason we didn't move when we were ready.

Where we really took a hit was on the arrival. Park at the gate and the rampers pop the baggage door triggering an IN time for both DOT and pay. They removed it from the main cabin door. Such a wonderful "concession" in EWR when I have waited up to 25 minutes for a jetway driver.

At $$$$mont our contract states we get paid when moving under own power but as long as the tug pushes us 50ft it will trip the timer. I don't have a problem with that, it's when ur waiting for deicing with the door closed, the 3 hr passenger bill of rights clock starts, why not ours? We get paid nothing to sit there and babysit while the gate agent sits inside with no passengers and makes the same amount of money wether they're in there or not.