Alpa and you-again
 

There have been many good posts on this issue recently and my attempt here is to simply frame the argument in a clear manner, specifically for those working at SkyWest.

One must agree ALPA/Unions have made several mistakes in the past.

One must also agree that most of our federal labor laws (including QOL rules in place today at airlines) were brought on because of labor action.

There is a pro and a con to having a union on the property.

You loose 2% pay. You gain a certain level of security. You loose some ability to communicate directly and quickly to management. You gain the ability to enforce the contract. It goes on an on.....

In light this...and looking forward as best we can, ask yourself...
1. If push comes to shove, who is going to look out for your interest?

Ex: SkyWest and ASA merge. A potential for millions in profits if done right. However, a sticky point is SkyWest pilots don't like the terms, say an even 1:1 merge. Who is going to assure our voice is heard? Jerry, Holt, Ellen?

2. SkyWest is bought. Will Brad/Jerry/Directors and SGU pass up millions because pilots are going to be unemployeed? Who is going to listen to us without a union?

3. How do you view the corporate world? Does the CEO really have YOUR best interst in mind? Or do you take responsibility and demand a say in the process?

1) ALPA is a business that steals your money to line their pockets. A friend of working at SKYW showed me what ALPA sent him. In the so called ORGANIZING packet there was nothing that said WHAT ALPA would do. It said what the Organizing Committee goals are . . . . it was ALL RHETORIC. I'm scared for you guys at SKYW if you fall for this crap.

2) You lose ALL ability to communicate with management. Why put an organization in between the communication process? Sounds like what the government does. Adds layers

3) I look out for my own interests. No one else. I would agree in the past that unions did have their place, that was because employees were being abused. (i.e. locked in a room for 15 hours and forced to sew, or forced to work in coal mines without protective equipment, etc . . .)

If you want a union, you are saying that you are an abused employee. SO, HOW ARE SKYWEST PILOTS BEING ABUSED? Tell me ladies and gentlemen.
a) They work 70-80 hours a month (part-time based on hours flown compared to the rest of the world)
b) They sleep in nice hotels, (Try looking at some of the other airlines, just ask around)
c) two pilots run off the runway in Wisconsin somewhere and the company lets them keep their job and retrains them,
d) SKYW keeps their equipment in great working order, schedules are not all that bad (except for those that cannot operate their new bidding system . . .I guess there are quirks)
e) SKYW offers many choices on health care
f) SKYW lets you guys buy their stock at the lowest price of the period (I COULDN"T BELIEVE THAT WHEN I SAW IT . . .This is FREE MONEY)

g) SKYW HAS A GREAT REPUTATION! Believe me when I tell you this, this will open more doors for you if you choose to move on in your career.

4) And you think SKYW will listen to ALPA. You are seriously wrong. I keep telling people, watch MESABA (MAIR HOLDINGS), COMAIR . . .and what ever happened to Independence Air . . .

5) This is a WHAT / IF. What if SKYW is NOT bought?

6) My view on corporate world, since you asked . . . . . Management goes home with ALL the problems, day in and day out. (Pilots and FA's leave their job as soon as they walk off the plane for the day . . .talking about a stress free night of sleep) Management maxes out their credit cards to make payroll when the business is struggling in its fledgling years while working for FREE to help the business grow, they work seven days a week 12-14 hour days, WITHOUT a day off after the 6th day, (I know this I used to own a business, with employees) Quite frankly, if SKYW didn't have management that cared it would be run out of business. As far as the CEO question,

I believe HERB KELLEHER (of Southwest Airlines) DOES have his employees best interest in mind. They do not have a union AND THEY HAVE one of the HIGHEST PAYSCALES IN THE INDUSTRY. DID ALPA help them achieve that . . .NOPE!

And, for all you pilots on the organizing committee, be careful what you wish for. Your names have already been placed on some black lists at other airlines (This is your friendly heads-up)

Unions needed?
 

True, some non-union companies treat their employees quite well, but this is usually because:

1) They reason that by doing so, they can keep unions off the property. Thus, unions at companies A and B induce better employee treatment at company C.

2) They have unusual leaders, like Herb Kelleher or C. E. Woolman. Unfortunately, such leaders are often succeeded by less enlightened ones.

Ellen,the quote below tells me that you are either very new in this industry, very ill informed, or both.

[QUOTE=Ellen;68251]
I believe HERB KELLEHER (of Southwest Airlines) DOES have his employees best interest in mind. They do not have a union AND THEY HAVE one of the HIGHEST PAYSCALES IN THE INDUSTRY.

They had a union last time I checked??? Where did SWAPA go?? Was it decertified?

Gotta call BS on this one... a) It's grossly illegal (unionizing is a protected activity) and b) Why bother? Any airline that someone would leave SKW for is already union.

Or it could be that they value their employees, If companies treated their employees so badly then the USA should be 100% union. Next two paragraphs are not directed toward you tomgoodman.

I'm so sick of the GIMMIE GIMMIE attitude that everyone has. Many think that they are OWED something from their employer, government, neighbor, boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife, et el.

If many of you would spend more time fighting against TAX LAW vs. spending time trying to determine "What YOU think you are worth" (Believe me, it's usually half of your determined value) or concentrate on breach of individual privacy and security issues (Patriot Act - Govt. unilaterally took away your rights, and you let them), you might find that you would be happier, wealtheir and feel better because you are helping out the Whole Country vs. a small pilot group.

Yea Ellen, you are right. CEO's and upper management do have that GIMME GIMME attitude. All you have to do is read the paper and see they feel like they are owed more $$$$ without increasing shareholder value or keeping their promises to employees or customers.

Ellen, are you high?
 

Ellen, are you high?

No, seriously.

ALPA is an organization. Thier goals are to protect and promote Airline Pilots. They are not a money making endevour. But what they do does cost money. Some things they spend money on I may not agree with, but by and large they are promoting my best intrest.

As far as telling people what your goals are... umm, why do you think this is bad? Just exactly what part of stating the goals of the organizing drive is bad in an organizing drive packet?


Really?
You lose all ability to communicate?
You vote in ALPA and your mouth closes over like Neo in The Matrix?
Wakling along in the terminal, you see the CEO, you stop to say hi, and a gang of ALPA enforcers rappell down from the rafters and gag you?
Don't be stupid. This is assinine.


Wow, what a lonely existance you must lead. No family, no friends, no compadres, there to get your back.

You don't even hire a lawyer when you go to court?
Or a plumber to unclog your drains?



Oh nice one!

Hey everybody come look at this!

Its the logical falicy.

Unions are only needed when employees are abused.
If you do not feel abused, you have no need of a Union.


Unions in the past succeeded in organizing, despite lack of legal protection, despite retribution from employers, despite government sanctioned physical violence, because the alternative status quo was so much worse.

A unions purpose in not to merely protect the physical bodies of its membership, but to promote thier intrests in the workplace.

a) 80 hours of flight time equals 192 hours of duty time, equals 384 hours at work, plus 32 hours commuting... assuming 5 hours of credit a day 12 hour duty day, four 4 day trips, and a 2 hour commute each way(A not unreasonable line holder's schedule). Vs 176 hours a month at work 9 to 5, and 44 hours with a 1 hour commute each way(my wife's schedule).

No, not part time.

Not even a full time employee spends as much time at work as a lineholder does on duty.

b) A hotel is a hotel. It may be more or less nice. It may be near amenities, or not. There may or may not be a breakfast served. It may or may not be affordable. It may or may not be available before you have to leave. When the glow wears off, and it will, it sucks to be away from your family.

c) Pilots do X. What was the cause of X?
Pilot error? Failure to follow procedure? Flawed procedures? Mechanical failure?
Keeping a pilot who disregards procedures isn't any better than firing one for events beyond his control.

d) Great, they're supposed to.

e) Ditto.

f) Ever heard of stock options? Don't act so shocked, its not that revolutionary.

Yes, its nice to be able to buy company stocks directly from the company. At Continental we payroll deducted a certain percentage from each paycheck. At the end of each quarter they took that money and bought stocks at the lowest price of the quarter. Great when stocks are going up, not so otherwise. But its just a mutual fund, with all its eggs in one basket. (see Enron for possible negative consequences.)

g) Yes it does. But how do you know that will help downstream? Do you hire pilots for WN?

I'd like to belive you, but your track record with the truth is questionable at best.


So you think that ALPA is the reason MESABA and COMAIR are having troubles? You forgot Eastern, Pan Am, TWA....

As far as listening to ALPA, the job of ALPA is to represent pilots, not tell management how to run thier business.

If you mean that SKYW will not negotiate in good faith with a Union, well I'll wager that thier management has a better grasp of Federal Law than you seem to have.

Untill they leave with thier golden parachutes, the company a broken shell of what it once was. (see UAL, et al.) The care free employees filing bankruptcy, homes forclosed, unable to pay for thier kids education, retirement savings gone. Meanwile the CEO has moved on to greener pastures to suck the life out of another cash cow (see Ichan, Lorenzo, et al).

Herb had an effective strategy. His methodology was to treat employees right. His objective was a high return. Note the difference.
SWA has the highest hourly rate for 737 sized a/c due to rollbacks every
where else. Only a few years ago they had the lowest. You could argue that ALPA did help them achieve that, since ALPA signed off on the concessionary contracts. But realisticly, events outside the control of both management and ALPA caused the rollbacks.

Oh and as adressed elsewhere SWA Pilots do have an association. And it is effective in protecting thier intrests.


Just out of curiosity, which airlines, and how do you know?
I'm bet the Justice Department would love to prosecute a Conspiricy case.
They get so much good press....




Almost everything Ellen said is wrong. Not just a differece of opinion but factually incorrect. Its almost impossible for someone to be so wrong about everything.

So either,

1) She's higher than a kite.

or

2) She's (he's?) a paid agent hired to spread disinformation and anti-union propaganda.

A person with no intrest in rational discussion.
A person who has no intreast in the truth.
A person who's only goal is to keep her client union free.

Google "union avoidance" and in the 4.9 million results you'll find hundereds of firms dedicated to keeping unions out of workplaces. They charge thousands of dollars a day, and companies pay, and count it as cheap.

ALPA may or may not be right for Skywest pilots. But SKYW is willing to pay millions and millions to keep them out.

A person should ask themself, "Why?"

Pretty good post Robthree- Would only add a couple things. I believe SWA is one of the most highly unionized airlines out there, so they must be communicating well with management to be as succesfull as they appear to be. ALPA does negotiate for their members for pay, etc., but one of their primary goals is safety. I think their motto "Schedule With Safety" is still there. Their accomplishments in the safety are too numerous to mention. They get input from the line pilots for safety improvements and work to see them implemented. There would be far fewer VASI's, Hold Short markings, etc., if it weren't for the ALPA Safety Committee. Just my 2 cents worth.

I have no problem with a union at Skywest. I think they need one. I just feel alpa is the wrong union for skywest. Alpa is for mainline, not for regionals.