for love of flying
I agree with HIREME, I use to think that getting into the aviation world was a sure future of big homes and nice cars. After being in the industry for a few short years I still consider myself a "rookie" by all means, but when I can wake up in the morning without dreading the day(instructing) I can't complain about that at all. I guess that is when you know you are doing what you love. I still believe that it only gets better from here by flying jets, the pay is nothing but a bonus to me. I hope that belief stays with me forever.The pay right now is peanuts, but being young and getting into the food chain as soon as possible is key.
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Student Loans
I know a few guys who are in their 40's and still owe 80K plus on their student loans. In college I was an Aviation and Business major and the numbers just don't work out. The average student is graduating over 100K in debt and will not be able to pay it off and have a normal life in the process unless they get on with a very good company while they are still young, and even that is no garuntee. Flying is fun and addictive but so is crack. At least crack kills you in the end. A modern carrer in aviation can leave you beyond broke and perfectly healthy. At some point we all need to earn a living at this. The math dosen't work out for most. It is a working hobby. You can earn some money but are loosing over time. We all have permanant smiles on our face in our 20's but that truns into concern in your 30's and panic in your 40's. It OK to be poor when you are young but it is devastating as you get older. It is wise to have an out stragety.
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Crack does kill
Hey, maybe I should start crack instead of continuing to try to beat my head against this wall we call flying. Seems to me pilots used to get paid a lot more to do a lot less. I definitely didn't get into this for the money, but geez, I see other people that I graduated high school with who are now managers at Burger King and making more than a first year right seater. That sucks! Maybe I should get out and begin a career at Burger King while taking out student loans to finance a crack habit.
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Crack Kills
If you do the math it makes more sense. In my town firefighters, police and school teachers start at around 35K and get a full retirement after 20 years. By the time most of us make it to a major they are only a few years from retirement. Crazy Huh !
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Originally Posted by WatchThis!
Can anyone tell me what would cause a person to spend about $75,000 to get a job that pays $24/hour? Unreal.
Was it unreal? Yep. What would cause someone to do it? They want to fly for the airlines and circumvent the CFI route a.k.a. Fast-Track. Now, this is what I can add: Was it worth it? No. Why? Keep reading. Delays in training - very costly to cadets. I bought into the advertisement of 10-12 months of flight training, which ended up being 18 months for me. I bought into the "elite training" advertisement. I bought into the Embry-Riddle name. I bought into 250 hours to an airline job (even though you really only get 225 actual flight time). I bought into the lofty statements like: "pilot monitoring time is being considered by the FAA and it's a near done deal, and it will revolutionize the industry and the airlines will accept that time as part of your total time" (right...) "7-9 guaranteed interviews after graduation" (at the time of graduation, there were 3 available only -- and it wasn't all guaranteed) "FCI (fighter combat instruction) training included" -- which, they put a stop to and never took it out of the tuition...we were supposed to get hyperbaric chamber training too and they stopped offering it and it was never taken out of our tuition either. Since their job placement guy left, my class had the pleasure of not having an interview prep course that everyone ahead of us had. Again, it was not reimbursed out of the tuition. Things made less and less sense as I got closer and closer to graduation. CAPT invited airlines to look at the program and they flat out told us our flight time at graduation are too low compared to their minimums. I always wondered why CAPT would bring in airlines to tell us that? A simple phone call would have saved a LOT of money catering to these events. And they attacked airlines one at a time. My suggestion to contact all the regional airlines at the same time was ignored. But it's funny how they started doing that toward the end of their business life cycle. Ah...sim training. Was it fun? Hell yeah! And if you got the 3:00am slot with no sim techs around to get her started it's even better. But the sim training certainly didn't make me feel like I was some "elite" pilot. Quite the opposite. The "fire hose" they tout is just that. They dump a bunch of information at you that I have pretty much lost due to non-use. Important stuff like 121 regulations were hardly appied in the sim training. They do give you more sim sessions than what an airline would give but that, in no way, means you're getting any better. Don't get me wrong. The instructors were great people. The only thing that sim training was for is to prove to the airlines that you are trainable, not so that you can go on IOE flying the real thing. Hell, no one ever taught me to land that thing during my sim training. I had to figure it out for myself. I was short 0.4 of an hour to get my 100 multi-engine hours to qualify for some of these other airlines they brought in. Did they help? No. I had to go out to another FBO to get that time. You'd think they'd work to get me the time so I can be an easier sell to the airlines. It took over 5 weeks to get our resume done...on our own too. We got a nifty template and little answers to the questions I had about it. That's just unacceptable. Job placement was never taken seriously by CAPT. They got lucky with the people they were able to get placed. On the up side, graduates of the program have gotten hired by the airlines...if you have the money to support yourself with the regionals' low pay scale. I unfortunately came into CAPT with only a dream...they just didn't tell me that I needed a boat load of money above and beyond tuition to do this career. When I made my decision, I wasn't aware of sites like airlinepilotcentral.com or flightinfo.com. If I did, I would have NEVER in a billion years done CAPT or any other low time, fast paced program. The program is not for everyone. In a nutshell, I paid for the most expensive vacation I have ever taken, and it'll take me many, many years to pay off. My dream turned into a nightmare. Made some cool friends in the process though. Otherwise, hind sight...20/20. I hope this answers your question. |
Thanks for sharing your experience. Its a shame you didn't get the mentorship you needed before being sucked into ERAU.
Who do you work for now? -LA |
Why do you think Riddle dropped CAPT?
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LAfrequentflyer, mentorship was difficult to get my hands on. But my CFI for my PVT told me it wasn't a great idea. The flying club I was running at the time, its members didn't exactly think it sounded quite right. I just figured it was innovative and that because it's Embry-Riddle, they must know what they're doing otherwise they would never risk this kind of venture. Yep, I was wrong.
de727ups, I wasn't there for the announcement but apparently ERAU's business plan didn't think CAPT was in alignment with their flight training business strategies. And I heard that the interim President wanted to do away with flight training altogether. But then they announced their glass Cessnas they just purchased so it seems to me like they just wanted to get CAPT off their name brand. Main campus students didn't like us, the CFIs at main campus didn't like us. It's all speculation at this point. But after going through the program, I can say that management was a problem. And their flight ops policies had a "sky's the limit" on spending policies that I saw. I just assumed they had a lot of venture capital along with our high tuition money. I ran a flying club so I knew how much flight ops cost. I was surprised at how they ran the operation. If it was up to me, I could have trimmed a lot of fat out of their operations. |
Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer
I'll be in the same boat as you when i retire and go into aviation as my second career...Actually, I'll be 41 when i start my second career in aviation. I'm not worried about it at all...I've worked hard , have served my country, i'll have a retirement so making ends meet won't be an issue...Like you I'm not interested in the $250K per year captain job...I'll be happy working at a regional...
I'm set on going thru All ATPs - on this board and thru others i've heard a lot of good things about them... Its nice to see another person jumping into aviation after retirement... V/r, Cajuns Fan... |
Exposed....:rolleyes:
-LA |
aviation deception
Don't be deceived by carreer placement programs. I did not listen to my CFI and went to atp fast track program, which I don't think is near as bad as Capt. The lies they told me before training about jobs and the entire industry is all bull****. They did not give me a job and with low time I was screwed. I finnally made it and then that is a matter of speaking of whether FO on a jet for 20K is making it. These type of programs are for rich kids and are screwing up the entire payscale for people trying to pay bills and support kids. If you have two kids as a first or second year FO you can get welfare, and I don't know if I would consider borrowing 50-75K to get on welfare. People who "love to fly" should leave commercial flying to people who want to make a living. They should go fly in the bush, aerobatics, 90 or 135 scenic tours because this flying is for people who fly for a hobby, for a career change or just have a rich family. Flying 5-7 legs a day is not fun after the doing it a hundred times. Don't let your dreams cloud your judgement, because you still have to make money, and ERAU and ATP are in it to make money too.
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The Delta connection seems a little differant than the rest in that you have about 1000 hours after you are finished. Once your done your training there, you instruct there for about 800 hours. Then they get you interviews with Delta connection airlines. But you could get to 1000 hours cheaper thru regular training and instructing. I guess the program would look good on your resume later in your career. But another problem is the bad shape delta is in. IF they go under, the program is history I would assume. That would suck if you were half way thru it and got shut down
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Originally Posted by Linebacker35
The Delta connection seems a little differant than the rest in that you have about 1000 hours after you are finished. Once your done your training there, you instruct there for about 800 hours. Then they get you interviews with Delta connection airlines. But you could get to 1000 hours cheaper thru regular training and instructing. I guess the program would look good on your resume later in your career. But another problem is the bad shape delta is in. IF they go under, the program is history I would assume. That would suck if you were half way thru it and got shut down
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Originally Posted by dcpilot
People who "love to fly" should leave commercial flying to people who want to make a living. They should go fly in the bush, aerobatics, 90 or 135 scenic tours because this flying is for people who fly for a hobby, for a career change or just have a rich family. Flying 5-7 legs a day is not fun after the doing it a hundred times. Don't let your dreams cloud your judgement, because you still have to make money, and ERAU and ATP are in it to make money too.
If you choose a career doing something you hate doing, your going to be a very miserable person, I don't care how much money you make,your not going to be happy, since a fair amount of your time will be doing what you hate. You are better off doing something you would enjoy doing. It sounds like your not very happy with your career of choice, maybe that is because you do not love to fly? |
Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer
Exposed....:rolleyes:
-LA LOL If I had to choose my co-pilot and their aviation experience was the same - I'd rather have a "40 something" with life experience and a mature work ethic rather than a "20 something" with an entitlement attitude. ;) |
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
Sounds like its not the young bucks fresh out of high school with 300 hours under their belts we need to be worried about, its the 40-somethings who want a neat "hobby" that pays a little something on the side....:rolleyes:
If you look closely some of the most lucrative businesses in America today have one thing in common...they do not need to employ their labor for a full career, either due to skilled labor that is inherently transient (construction) or the fact that all their labor is unskilled entry level (retail, fast-food). The airlines would prefer that we were all inherently transient... |
Originally Posted by NE_Pilot
So if you love to fly, you cannot make a living doing it??? Now correct me if I'm wrong, but you are your job, so it is probably in your best interest to love to do the work you do. Which would lead one to believe, that pilots who fly for money, love to fly, and that is why they do that as opposed to working as police officier, or at some corporation, etc.
If you choose a career doing something you hate doing, your going to be a very miserable person, I don't care how much money you make,your not going to be happy, since a fair amount of your time will be doing what you hate. You are better off doing something you would enjoy doing. As for the "you are your job" deal, I really hope you got a life outside of flying. My friends in the corporate and police line of work are perfectly comfortable with their lives inside and outside the office. |
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
From what I understand about the DCA program you finish with about 200 hours and then you are given the oppurtunity to apply to be an instructor there. IF you get chosen to be an instructor you do that for about 1/2 of what you could make instructing at an FBO until you reach the magic 1000 hours and then YOU get the interviews (they aren't handed out like candy) with a recommendation from DCA. There are much better ways to spend your money and enjoy flying at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Flying Ninja
Dude, I love flying. I was willing to give up good money for doing what I love. But, at the pay level that the regionals are starting out FOs, well, it's laughable, almost criminal. Personally, if I can help it, I would never want to fly a regional carrier as a passenger knowing that 50% of the flight crew is probably malnurished, stressed financially, and worried about if the flight attendant saved any peanuts between hops.
As for the "you are your job" deal, I really hope you got a life outside of flying. My friends in the corporate and police line of work are perfectly comfortable with their lives inside and outside the office. When you get home, you tend to think about your job, and talk about what happened, right? It is a part of you, you are what you do essentially. Even other people identify their friends by their work, how many times have you heard, "Thats Bobby he's a [insert profession here]." People, upon first meeting you, tend to ask what you do for a living. They associate you by your job. The main point, is that if you don't atleast like what you are doing, you should probably switch professions. (This is not direct at you, since you said you love to fly). Personally I would rather be successful, than rich. I don't consider every rich person successful, you are successful if you are truely happy with your life, which includes what you do, since it is such a large part of your life. |
Originally Posted by Linebacker35
Yah, I only think it would be worth it doing the 4 year degree at one of the universities. Because even tho you are getting paid alot less, you are instructing during your senior year of university. Thats the only reason I thought it might work alright. Not a bad way to spend the last year to getting a degree. But yah it would be increadibly stupid to do it outside of the university program
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Originally Posted by Linebacker35
Yah, I only think it would be worth it doing the 4 year degree at one of the universities. Because even tho you are getting paid alot less, you are instructing during your senior year of university. Thats the only reason I thought it might work alright. Not a bad way to spend the last year to getting a degree. But yah it would be increadibly stupid to do it outside of the university program
If you are already in college or most of the way done, go get your comm/multi/inst and then bang out a CFI/CFII/MEI rating. You can do it with significantly less cost than a place like DCA or RAA and you will learn a hell of a lot more. Really get to know the people at the place where you fly, they will be a good start when you are ready for that first flying job. My first flight instructing job was at the flight school I had gotten my private at. Even though I hadn't done any other training with them and only rented from them sporatically, I had a good raport with the owner/chief instructor and when I was looking for a summer job, he helped me out. And it is not difficult to instruct while going to college because as an instructor you can pretty much make your own schedule. I did 3 semesters of instructing while attending college and was still able to maintain my GPA without any trouble. Plus you'll make more and work less than your friends working retail or fast food:D Hope this helps |
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
Thats what I did, a 4 year degree at a normal university (albeit one with a world renown aviation program, the screen name is a clue;) ) But even if I had not gone that route, there is no reason to rack up the kind of debt these "pilot factories" require. The benefit is just not there to justify the cost.
If you are already in college or most of the way done, go get your comm/multi/inst and then bang out a CFI/CFII/MEI rating. You can do it with significantly less cost than a place like DCA or RAA and you will learn a hell of a lot more. Really get to know the people at the place where you fly, they will be a good start when you are ready for that first flying job. My first flight instructing job was at the flight school I had gotten my private at. Even though I hadn't done any other training with them and only rented from them sporatically, I had a good raport with the owner/chief instructor and when I was looking for a summer job, he helped me out. And it is not difficult to instruct while going to college because as an instructor you can pretty much make your own schedule. I did 3 semesters of instructing while attending college and was still able to maintain my GPA without any trouble. Plus you'll make more and work less than your friends working retail or fast food:D Hope this helps Yah that sounds good! Im almost done HS, so im just trying to figure out how I should go about all this. |
Originally Posted by NE_Pilot
The main point, is that if you don't atleast like what you are doing, you should probably switch professions. (This is not direct at you, since you said you love to fly). Personally I would rather be successful, than rich. I don't consider every rich person successful, you are successful if you are truely happy with your life, which includes what you do, since it is such a large part of your life.
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Originally Posted by HSLD
LOL
If I had to choose my co-pilot and their aviation experience was the same - I'd rather have a "40 something" with life experience and a mature work ethic rather than a "20 something" with an entitlement attitude. ;) |
I agree
Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
I have to agree HSLD aviation experience being equal, Id take the guy with life experience and maturity too. But my point is a 40 year old guy who is independently wealthy (meaning doesn't care about pay or bennies), bored with his desk job and thinks flying a jet with passengers in the back would be a "cool hobby" is no different from the 20 year old guy with a blank check from mommy and daddy. Both are not going to be good for those of us trying to feed and shelter ourselves as we start out on this odysey in the aviation industry. Yes, the life experience is going to be different and the 40 year old guy will probably have more maturity but that is no indicator of how someone will react in a clutch situation.
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Originally Posted by freezingflyboy
I have to agree HSLD aviation experience being equal, Id take the guy with life experience and maturity too. But my point is a 40 year old guy who is independently wealthy (meaning doesn't care about pay or bennies), bored with his desk job and thinks flying a jet with passengers in the back would be a "cool hobby" is no different from the 20 year old guy with a blank check from mommy and daddy. Both are not going to be good for those of us trying to feed and shelter ourselves as we start out on this odysey in the aviation industry. Yes, the life experience is going to be different and the 40 year old guy will probably have more maturity but that is no indicator of how someone will react in a clutch situation.
I'm a career changer myself...I do have financial resources apart from airline pay, but I EARNED them. I am by no means content to slave away at a regional job and write it off as a "cool hobby". I don't like spending my hard earned savings to make up the gap between regional pay and financial reality. Like many others, I looked at the pay scales when I entered the industry, but did not fully understand the work rules. However I have the experience, judgement, and energy to help force some change, which I am agressively pursuing. The 20 something PFT slackers are the ones whose apathy overwelms what little economic sense they might have.:mad: |
I'd rather fly with the guy who doesn't say "dude"
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Originally Posted by Rama
I'd rather fly with the guy who doesn't say "dude"
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Add insult to injury...
I requested CAPT to send my resume out to Air Wisconsin on 2/10/2006. I received an e-mail this morning that my resume was going out to them TODAY. I mean...who does this? How much of an effort does it take to shove a few sheets of paper into an envelope and hand it to a secretary to address it, put a stamp on it and walk to a mail box? |
Since they aren't getting any money out of you, you're not very high on the priority list.
I thought you were done with aviation for the time being? |
Oh I am. I just think folks should know the level of incompetence at CAPT. In the unlikely event that they somehow get bought out by another investor, I want to put it in writing the level of incompetence at CAPT for future generations to be aware of.
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