OO/CP
 

Hi all... so myself and a few other very junior 9E'ers are in the same boat, we are swimming laps in the pool at CP and have job offers with class dates from OO. Question is do we jump to OO now and flee 9E or wait until the flow and attrition kicks into full force at CP? We for the most part have our minds made up just curious to see what you all think...

There isn't a training contract at Skywest so you could leave when Compass calls

Take the sure thing. Things can change overnight.

Take the sure thing.. No training contract at OO. Then go to CP if needs be, or things are going to be better at CP for you... If you want MSP at OO you will get it...

What horrible advice! You guys are suggesting a lateral move from Pinnacle to SkyWest and then to Compass?

Nobody can make this decision for you and it doesn't matter what we think! You need to ask yourself what is important to you when chosing those carriers (Contract, bases, work rules) etc. Just the though of starting over at 1st yr pay again... Ugh!

Well normally I would agree with you, but they did say that they are very junior so I would assume first or second year. Indeed, a lateral move is not great for pay but if your QOL could increase, it would be worth it in my opinion (Such as much to another carrier where you could be home based).


However, I agree I would not want to make that move more than once. To move to Skywest THEN compass seems like spending an awful long time at the bottom. It probably makes sense just to swim around the pool for a bit and hold steady unless you are so repulsed by your current carrier that you cannot continue.

Although, I do know some people who are "Type rating *****s" that just go from place to place to get free type ratings. If thats your thing, have at it.

Why would you ever leave Pinnacle?????? ;)

I would go to Skywest and see what the current situation looks like once Compass calls. What else can you do? Wait until 9E finally sinks and then not have a job? Then you would be unemployed just waiting/hoping for Compass to call.

I'd imagine if guys from 9E use SkyWest as a placeholder til Compass finally calls them they'll be effectively burning the bridge for other 9E'ers down the line who may need a job in the future. But at least they got theirs.

Just a thought...

I see nothing ethically or morally wrong with going to Skywest and then deciding at a later date that Compass is a better fit. I don't think any Regional will be in a position to be picky in the near future, even Skywest will have to take whoever they can get regardless of who they think will stay and won't stay.

IMO, go to your preferred carrier, and forget about the other one. I say that for 2 reasons:

1. Going from SKW to Compass or vice versa will mean 3 years on 1st year pay. Need I say more?

2. when people jump companies like that, they start to impose training contracts (for good reason)

More info is needed, are you currently safely employed at 9E (not looking like you’ll be furloughed within the next 1-2 months)? If so then wait for CP. If not then I agree with PD, take the class with OO and when the time comes make the decision to stay or jump again. I will add that you’ll upgrade at CP long before you would at OO.

Training contracts holds not legal grounds. Compass or any other 121 company has to legally training you for the job. Even if you already have an ERJ 190/170 type, they have to legally train you with their approved training program. You cant show up and day 1 and have them say, "you already have a CRJ, ERJ, DCH8 PIC/SIC type so you can skip the training. We will send you to OE to expidite this process."

If you take the job, then leave and is promted to pay then it comes down to you not knowing your rights if you are stupid enough to pay. Training is a fixed cost. With that a budget is made, tax is paid, and tax cuts and returns are given. If a pilot leave one of these companies and is promted to pay do youself and the rest of us a favor and fill out IRS Form 3949-A. How Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?

Even if you sign the initial training "contract" its an illegal contract to begin with and will hold no grounds. You are signing this so called contract under duress. How to Prove that Documents Were Signed Under Duress - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com Either you sign this document on day one in training or no job for you. How is that legal? Does the HR person or chief pilot give you a chance and opportunity to review this document with a lawyer, I think not. They rush to get you to sign, then leave the room. Now you are intimidated with the impression that if you leave, you have to pay. That could be argued as duress. duress legal definition of duress. duress synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.. Though not vilolent, its still falls under duress due to the the force, stress, pressue and intimidation to sign or else be unemployed.

Paying back a training contract to any airline will be unreported income, therefore it is a tax fraud..

I'm honestly sick of hearing about these contracts and pilots scaring other pilots. Educate youself

Quick question for ya. Aren't training contracts available for review prior to the interview? A simple call to the training dept. would be all it would take if the applicant was doing their due diligence. There is no duress if a person has a reasonable amount of time to review it.

Please don't take legal advice from the guy who can't even proofread.

Training contracts can be legally enforced.

PITTARD v. GREAT LAKES AVIATION, No.

Pilot lost in that case.

Good post. Interesting read. Oh, the memories and joy of my first law classes.

How about you provide some information that make sense then sir..

These training contracts are not worth the paper they are written on..

See the most recent case with Allen Miller vs Flexjet..In this case the pilot wins...

No clear winner in Flexjet training lawsuit | Aviation International News

And you are right.. No one should take my advise, contact a lawyer for yourself like I did...AOPA has an awesome legal service program.

http://aircrewbuzz.blogspot.com/2008...awsuit-vs.html

The case law is now available that cites with the pilots.

Due diligence? Why on earth would you do that? Why would you call and say, hey i want to look at this contract so when I leave i wont have an argument for duress...

These contracts becomes legal when you sign a promissory note. When you leave a company with a training contract, they try to get you to sign a promissory note during an exit interview. If you dont sign it, its not a legal binding document...

They give you plenty of time to review the training contract at CP. You know that the contract says $12k prorated $1k per month over the first year after training. If you dont like those terms, and really plan on bailing, don't give your word that you are going to stay. As a side note, how does three jobs in three years look to a prospective employer after the regional level? The regionals all pay pretty much the same, so the discriminators are working conditions and bases. The CP contract is not stellar, but in general the schedulers are willing to use what discretion they have to help a reserve guy be commutable. We have the best chief pilot you could ask for. He is very fair. I needed baby leave before I had a year in, and was still not eligible for FMLA. It went beyond my available sick time. The response was "No problem, family first". It is as good of a place as any to put in your regional time, and better than quite a few.

Usually, you sign a promisory note at the first day of training, not at an exit interview.

That being said, if you don't sign the promisory note during your indoc, you will be asked to leave.

I have been to two different companies with training contract. None of them had me or any other pilot sign a promisory note on day one at least in the classes im familiar with. When i left one of those companies, an exit interview was schedule in which they tried to get me to sign a promisary note. I knew if i signed that document, now this would be a legal contract.

The document you sign on day one does not have a payment plan. Compass' training contract is set up a bit diffent in the fact that it states the total and how much you would have to repay for each month still remaining on that contract. It's still not a promisory note to repay. Unless you sign a document saying you agree to a certain payment plan either weekly, monthly, bi-weekly, yearly they have no grounds to collect money from you. If they do decide to bring it to court, you can argue the fact that you did not agree to a payment plan. You could pay a penny every 10 year and be in agreement to the document you signed on day 1 that did not include a payment plan.

I have dealt with this in real life. Not putting in my assumptions here.

Like I said, AOPA has an awesome legal service that will help you through all of this. These contracts are not legal until you sign a promisory note.

Legalities aside, thumbing your nose at a training contract sounds like an excellent way to put a black mark on your employment record. Can't imagine they'll tell future prospective employers "yes" when they ask if you're eligible for rehire.

One other thing before you pass up a class date with OO for an unknown future class date with CP...

We (CPZ) don't have any large-scale hiring planned until Delta takes flow-throughs. They're now telling their guys it could be 2014. At the earliest, it'll likely be next fall. Until then any hiring at CPZ will be pretty sporadic as we lose a couple mid-seniority guys a month. If you're high up in the pool then you may get a class date this winter/spring, but I'd expect to stay on reserve a while. Not sure how SKW compares these days.

You are right but it's completly illegal and unethical for a company to reveal anything related to why they will not rehire (im sure they do anyway).. just as not paying back could be viewed as unethical.

You wouldnt make that comment unless you think these companies were doing things that are unethical or is capable of. Double standard.. We are expected to be perfect humans with flawless records and character when these companies could do every illegal that they want and get away with it just because of our fears.

And as you already know, our previous company does not re-hire anyone..thats a fact

Dude. You do work at the same place as me, right!? Look at our DO! :D

And yeah, my understanding is that most companies won't reveal why a former employee is ineligible for rehire, but it's pretty rare that someone is not, so it raises big questions that you may have to answer before getting that dream job.

If he can get jobs and promotions after his pass transgression, i have a lot of potential, hope, and chances for growth in my future. :D

Interesting tangent this has taken from what I originally posted... BUT to answer the question of am I safe from furlough depends on the question if 9E has any idea of what their fleet plan will be. If it stays the same the case can be made that I am safe with attrition being what it is, however if the fleet shrinks then I'd most likely be out the door once 12-04 and the supposed 12-05/13-01 is all trained through. The thought plan is to hang on for CP until they call but the fact that it is an unknown class date is the only worry....

what is the current attrition like now? just curious i used to be there as well

Check the latest pool update, best info for your decision I think.

That fact that you are still employed with two other offers puts you in a pretty nice position. I would have to agree with those who say pick one and stay, not only does it raise eyebrows to potential interviewers, 2-3 years at year one seniority and pay makes me cringe. But perhaps you really enjoy the classroom and simulator :-) Keep in mind, there is no golden nugget in the regional airlines and in my opinion, while staring down a potential furlough either option is a pretty decent one.

I'm assuming that you have a little time to make the decision and did a little research on the airlines prior to interviewing. The long and short of it is the job is going to be very similar at both airlines. You need to determine what airline best meets your needs and desires such as basing, upgrade etc. If you have your eyes set on the Compass flowthrough, wait it out. However, by the time you are in a position to flow, there are most likely going to be options at comparable airlines to Delta that the same amount of experience at any regional would qualify you for. So if you are desperate to get out of Pinnacle well there you go. If you are simply asking which is the better regional, well I'm sure you know how that story goes.

And now that I reread your post, I have to imagine that you guys are leaning Compass as it would seem to compare best to your basing/commute situation at 9E. Go with your heart and you can't go wrong!

Unexplained lateral moves look horrible on an application (OO to CP in less than a year would be an unexplained lateral move). Pilot A spends 8 years at 1 carrier, then applies to <insert name of legacy carrier here> vs pilot B who has jumped between 2 or 3 regional chasing the quick upgrade and the nicer equipment. Pilot A will always be chosen over pilot B.

I understand why people want to jump from Pinnacle, but going to another regional in the interim would only maximize your career exposure to regional first year pay. If you have a guaranteed job at CP, what's the rush?

With JetBlue, UAL, USAir, and American hiring right around the corner, I'd focus my energy on getting a job with them...not another regional. I don't think PIC time is as big of a deal as it once was, however, if it still is, I'd stay put. If things are as bad as everyone says, your CAs will go to the legacies soon, and you'll upgrade.

There is no flow for the new hires at Compass.

No flow UP that is. ;)

They are getting "guaranteed" interviews though, when the time comes.

I think guaranteed "interviews" is more appropriate. "So, tell us about yourself and thanks for coming."

I doubt it will be that bad. We have a lot of well qualified people here. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to go through all of the trouble to schedule an interview, tie up the people, and then not give the applicant a fair shot. I'm not saying that everyone will get hired, but we all have already been through the Delta style interview once already.

The CA and I were discussing this the other day. The guaranteed interview COULD be like a flow, when hiring at Delta really cranks up. It gives Delta the chance to weed out the problem folk, and Delta, IF it chooses, could abbreviate the interview and skip the portions not already completed (CPZ uses the three computerized exams DL does, and does a medical).

In other words it doesn't commit Delta to bring on every pilot the way a flow up would. It gives them a chance to weed out any "trouble" they see. You have to sign over your entire cpz employment record, so they will see any issues.

There are a lot of "IF's" in there but that was our take on the possible use of the new policy

If you work for a DCI carrier, they pick up the phone and call your CP during the interview, (when they send you out of the room,) to see if you are a discipline child. OALs stand a better chance slipping through the cracks.