SAPA 'Negotiations' Update
07-08-2013, 06:27 PM
#151
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Originally Posted by Slats
Originally Posted by Nevets
You forgot the part about Skywest negotiating a CPA with cal with 16% concession from the XJT pilots in order to bring them down to parity with Skywest pilots and help cause XJT to become unprofitable. XJT's losses after 9/08 are directly attributable to that. Skywest broke it and now they paid for it
Originally Posted by MatchPoint
r
And yet your Mgmt. team came back and lowballed Jerry's offer, then ran for the hills. Fact is my W2's are equal to or greater than 2 of my friends who are line holding CA's at L-XJT with roughly equal seniority to mine in domicile. The difference is my pay is linked more to my production which is what make us more efficient. You may refuse to believe this but as subcontractors you cannot have contracts heavy on soft time. Yes we all would love to get paid to not work but it drives up cost in an industry held down by mainline. Something has to give, if you go heavy on soft time your payrates will suffer, if your payrates climb higher you’ll have less soft time. We at SkyWest have found a balance. My advice which you 10%ers over there won't take, find your balance before you sink your ship and if you're willing to sink your ship you're bigger fools than I had originally imagined. Remember that Jerry won't allow you to bring the company down so if you don't work it out you'll deserve what you get. I just feel sorry for the 90% you're going to bring down with you.
Since a large portion, boarding a majority these days, of SkyWest pilots have come from other union airlines have you ever stopped to wonder why there hasn’t been another union drive at SkyWest in over 7 years? Also look around these boards at all the disgruntled pilots on here, how many are form SkyWest. There’s your answer, but since it contradicts everything you all are arguing you’ll never concede the facts.
So keep on keeping on; continue to bash us and call us whatever your little minds can fathom up but remember this, we’re happy and in life that’s far more important than a few $ more per hour. In my almost 8 years at SkyWest I’ve never raised by voice to crew support and I’ve never felt I was being treated unfairly. My wife has some very serious medical issues and when I need to be there for her there are no questions asked and it doesn’t count against my reliability. They’ve even positive spaced me a few times when I needed to get home ASAP. Everyone here will tell you your family comes first, PERIOD! The times I've explained in detail to my friends at RAH, L-XJT, L-ASA, AE, 9E and GoJet about how SkyWest operates they’re dumb founded at why their airline is incapable to doing the same. I am very thankful for SkyWest and their willingness to help their employees in any way they can (within reason) but they expect a return on their generosity. So every day when I show up to work I give my company 110%, I take care of our customers and I take care of our customers customers.
Originally Posted by Nevets
You forgot the part about Skywest negotiating a CPA with cal with 16% concession from the XJT pilots in order to bring them down to parity with Skywest pilots and help cause XJT to become unprofitable. XJT's losses after 9/08 are directly attributable to that. Skywest broke it and now they paid for it.
Since a large portion, boarding a majority these days, of SkyWest pilots have come from other union airlines have you ever stopped to wonder why there hasn’t been another union drive at SkyWest in over 7 years? Also look around these boards at all the disgruntled pilots on here, how many are form SkyWest. There’s your answer, but since it contradicts everything you all are arguing you’ll never concede the facts.
So keep on keeping on; continue to bash us and call us whatever your little minds can fathom up but remember this, we’re happy and in life that’s far more important than a few $ more per hour. In my almost 8 years at SkyWest I’ve never raised by voice to crew support and I’ve never felt I was being treated unfairly. My wife has some very serious medical issues and when I need to be there for her there are no questions asked and it doesn’t count against my reliability. They’ve even positive spaced me a few times when I needed to get home ASAP. Everyone here will tell you your family comes first, PERIOD! The times I've explained in detail to my friends at RAH, L-XJT, L-ASA, AE, 9E and GoJet about how SkyWest operates they’re dumb founded at why their airline is incapable to doing the same. I am very thankful for SkyWest and their willingness to help their employees in any way they can (within reason) but they expect a return on their generosity. So every day when I show up to work I give my company 110%, I take care of our customers and I take care of our customers customers.
Anyway, I think you are confused about low ball offers. After JA's 16% concession CPA offer to CAL, CAL literally took that offer and told our CEO to match it or they would start winding down XJT after 12 months notice. Our CEO took that CPA and signed it. Then we started losing money on the CAL flying and we have away concessions.
As far as pay, it's not about W2s. The only real way to compare is to take TOTAL compensation (wages, matching, retirement, health insurance, and work rules) and divide it by total block hours flown. We took a 7% concession which equals $10 million a year and yet it's still 9% higher than what our CEO said would bring us to parity to you guys. Even with the 7% concessions from every employee, I guess that 9% was making a difference in that we were still losing more than $10 million a year when Skywest bought us.
Lastly, my other point is that, as you point out, ignorance is bliss. And the ex union pilots you have all seem to make the same assumption that our own union pilots make, that is that since ALPA national or the IBT sucked at TSA/MESA/RAH then that just mean ALPA sucks. But they don't understand that they would have been worse off at each one of those places without a union than with the one they had. They also make the mistake of thinking that ALPA national runs all the pilot groups when in fact eachEC is an independent union that associates themselves with a national organization and call themselves ALPA. Also, they fall for the F&H playbook of undermining the union with a huge disproportionate help from the RLA in order to get pilots to fight amongst themselves by blaming the union for the perceived shortcomings when it's mostly due to the deck being stacked against the airline employee. And there is always the fact that each union is only going to be as good as its members and the members who volunteer for leadership positions. In other words, just because the union sucked at the other company does not mean that all unions suck everywhere or that it would such at the current place. As an example, generally, our union at XJT had a very good relationship with our previous management. Sure they had disagreements but the relationship was good because they both respected the process to resolve differences and respected the contract and didn't try to reinterpret every single clause which creates a lot of unnecessary conflict. It sounds like you would have as good of a relationship with your management,of not better. But alas, you guys rather ride the coat tails.
07-08-2013, 07:20 PM
#152
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Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,071
Originally Posted by Nevets
How is it we all operate then? Because what I've said has been well documented.
Well, you are right that XJT is not really about family first. They say they are but they dont make it as easy as it seems to be with you. Although if my wife had very serious medical issues, I don't rely on someone's generosity since there is FMLA (which ALPA and the AFA lobbied to make it apply to airline crews). So in the end, I would be able to take any days off I needed to take care of here or anyone else in my family. But I'll concede that point to you. What I'm trying to tell you is that despite us having the same CEO, we don't get the same treatment, by your own admission.
Anyway, I think you are confused about low ball offers. After JA's 16% concession CPA offer to CAL, CAL literally took that offer and told our CEO to match it or they would start winding down XJT after 12 months notice. Our CEO took that CPA and signed it. Then we started losing money on the CAL flying and we have away concessions.
As far as pay, it's not about W2s. The only real way to compare is to take TOTAL compensation (wages, matching, retirement, health insurance, and work rules) and divide it by total block hours flown. We took a 7% concession which equals $10 million a year and yet it's still 9% higher than what our CEO said would bring us to parity to you guys. Even with the 7% concessions from every employee, I guess that 9% was making a difference in that we were still losing more than $10 million a year when Skywest bought us.
Lastly, my other point is that, as you point out, ignorance is bliss. And the ex union pilots you have all seem to make the same assumption that our own union pilots make, that is that since ALPA national or the IBT sucked at TSA/MESA/RAH then that just mean ALPA sucks. But they don't understand that they would have been worse off at each one of those places without a union than with the one they had. They also make the mistake of thinking that ALPA national runs all the pilot groups when in fact eachEC is an independent union that associates themselves with a national organization and call themselves ALPA. Also, they fall for the F&H playbook of undermining the union with a huge disproportionate help from the RLA in order to get pilots to fight amongst themselves by blaming the union for the perceived shortcomings when it's mostly due to the deck being stacked against the airline employee. And there is always the fact that each union is only going to be as good as its members and the members who volunteer for leadership positions. In other words, just because the union sucked at the other company does not mean that all unions suck everywhere or that it would such at the current place. As an example, generally, our union at XJT had a very good relationship with our previous management. Sure they had disagreements but the relationship was good because they both respected the process to resolve differences and respected the contract and didn't try to reinterpret every single clause which creates a lot of unnecessary conflict. It sounds like you would have as good of a relationship with your management,of not better. But alas, you guys rather ride the coat tails.
Well, you are right that XJT is not really about family first. They say they are but they dont make it as easy as it seems to be with you. Although if my wife had very serious medical issues, I don't rely on someone's generosity since there is FMLA (which ALPA and the AFA lobbied to make it apply to airline crews). So in the end, I would be able to take any days off I needed to take care of here or anyone else in my family. But I'll concede that point to you. What I'm trying to tell you is that despite us having the same CEO, we don't get the same treatment, by your own admission.
Anyway, I think you are confused about low ball offers. After JA's 16% concession CPA offer to CAL, CAL literally took that offer and told our CEO to match it or they would start winding down XJT after 12 months notice. Our CEO took that CPA and signed it. Then we started losing money on the CAL flying and we have away concessions.
As far as pay, it's not about W2s. The only real way to compare is to take TOTAL compensation (wages, matching, retirement, health insurance, and work rules) and divide it by total block hours flown. We took a 7% concession which equals $10 million a year and yet it's still 9% higher than what our CEO said would bring us to parity to you guys. Even with the 7% concessions from every employee, I guess that 9% was making a difference in that we were still losing more than $10 million a year when Skywest bought us.
Lastly, my other point is that, as you point out, ignorance is bliss. And the ex union pilots you have all seem to make the same assumption that our own union pilots make, that is that since ALPA national or the IBT sucked at TSA/MESA/RAH then that just mean ALPA sucks. But they don't understand that they would have been worse off at each one of those places without a union than with the one they had. They also make the mistake of thinking that ALPA national runs all the pilot groups when in fact eachEC is an independent union that associates themselves with a national organization and call themselves ALPA. Also, they fall for the F&H playbook of undermining the union with a huge disproportionate help from the RLA in order to get pilots to fight amongst themselves by blaming the union for the perceived shortcomings when it's mostly due to the deck being stacked against the airline employee. And there is always the fact that each union is only going to be as good as its members and the members who volunteer for leadership positions. In other words, just because the union sucked at the other company does not mean that all unions suck everywhere or that it would such at the current place. As an example, generally, our union at XJT had a very good relationship with our previous management. Sure they had disagreements but the relationship was good because they both respected the process to resolve differences and respected the contract and didn't try to reinterpret every single clause which creates a lot of unnecessary conflict. It sounds like you would have as good of a relationship with your management,of not better. But alas, you guys rather ride the coat tails.
07-09-2013, 01:13 AM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 325
Nevets goes on and on how we at Skywest are always riding coat tails, we don't have a "real ASAP program" (which is not true), etc etc. Yet we continue for the most part, sometimes 1% at a time, raise our compensation year after year. Our last pay "negotiations" was turned down by the pilot group, and management did come back with a "larger" raise than the first one using Pinnacle's at the time new contract. We raised the bar per se. If we do nothing, we still will be the highest paid regional. Do we use other union pilot group contracts to help us, of course, we all do, just like I'm sure the rest of you at other union airlines have our current pay/work rules and use them in your contract talks.
But it always comes back to Skywest is riding coat tails. If some how we got the miracle of mainline pay for rj flying, someone would find a fault that we are still hurting the industry. What video will pop up next on YouTube, Skywest pilot/FA is a tool for crossing seatbelts?
Yet this is still a forum and Nevets and many others that have issues with us will still have issues tomorrow and the next day regardless what we do up front or what our mgmt does. It is what it is.
Does Nevets have a good reason to be upset at INC for the paycuts that were placed on expressjet mgmt of course, I can understand that. But funny how its more focused on Skywest vs CO mgmt for going to Skywest in the first place and getting a nice payout for "playing the game". If it was Pinnacle or TSA mgmt that made the offer would it have been different? Prob not.
But it always comes back to Skywest is riding coat tails. If some how we got the miracle of mainline pay for rj flying, someone would find a fault that we are still hurting the industry. What video will pop up next on YouTube, Skywest pilot/FA is a tool for crossing seatbelts?
Yet this is still a forum and Nevets and many others that have issues with us will still have issues tomorrow and the next day regardless what we do up front or what our mgmt does. It is what it is.
Does Nevets have a good reason to be upset at INC for the paycuts that were placed on expressjet mgmt of course, I can understand that. But funny how its more focused on Skywest vs CO mgmt for going to Skywest in the first place and getting a nice payout for "playing the game". If it was Pinnacle or TSA mgmt that made the offer would it have been different? Prob not.
07-09-2013, 02:12 PM
#155
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by BHopper88
Does Nevets have a good reason to be upset at INC for the paycuts that were placed on expressjet mgmt of course, I can understand that. But funny how its more focused on Skywest vs CO mgmt for going to Skywest in the first place and getting a nice payout for "playing the game". If it was Pinnacle or TSA mgmt that made the offer would it have been different? Prob not.
07-12-2013, 10:48 AM
#156
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by BHopper88
Nevets goes on and on how we at Skywest are always riding coat tails, we don't have a "real ASAP program" (which is not true), etc etc. Yet we continue for the most part, sometimes 1% at a time, raise our compensation year after year. Our last pay "negotiations" was turned down by the pilot group, and management did come back with a "larger" raise than the first one using Pinnacle's at the time new contract. We raised the bar per se. If we do nothing, we still will be the highest paid regional. Do we use other union pilot group contracts to help us, of course, we all do, just like I'm sure the rest of you at other union airlines have our current pay/work rules and use them in your contract talks.
But it always comes back to Skywest is riding coat tails. If some how we got the miracle of mainline pay for rj flying, someone would find a fault that we are still hurting the industry. What video will pop up next on YouTube, Skywest pilot/FA is a tool for crossing seatbelts?
Yet this is still a forum and Nevets and many others that have issues with us will still have issues tomorrow and the next day regardless what we do up front or what our mgmt does. It is what it is.
Does Nevets have a good reason to be upset at INC for the paycuts that were placed on expressjet mgmt of course, I can understand that. But funny how its more focused on Skywest vs CO mgmt for going to Skywest in the first place and getting a nice payout for "playing the game". If it was Pinnacle or TSA mgmt that made the offer would it have been different? Prob not.
But it always comes back to Skywest is riding coat tails. If some how we got the miracle of mainline pay for rj flying, someone would find a fault that we are still hurting the industry. What video will pop up next on YouTube, Skywest pilot/FA is a tool for crossing seatbelts?
Yet this is still a forum and Nevets and many others that have issues with us will still have issues tomorrow and the next day regardless what we do up front or what our mgmt does. It is what it is.
Does Nevets have a good reason to be upset at INC for the paycuts that were placed on expressjet mgmt of course, I can understand that. But funny how its more focused on Skywest vs CO mgmt for going to Skywest in the first place and getting a nice payout for "playing the game". If it was Pinnacle or TSA mgmt that made the offer would it have been different? Prob not.
YES, Skywest is riding the coat tails. And its not even so much about compensation (although you are supposed to get whatever 401k matching, health benefits, and scope we get) but more about all the safety aspects that pilot unions pay for every day that you take advantage of. Just one other example on top of known cremember is CASS. Anyway, even you riding the coat tails on our 401k matching, health benefits, and scope, you don't think that that is a drag on our negotiations and that that doesn't make us use more negotiating leverage to increase or even keep any of those? We are negotiating for ALL skywest pilots! If you think that isn't coat tail riding, then you are hopeless.
PS. Trust me, most of us at LXJT understand exactly where the whipsaw came from. JA just saw an opportunity and went for it. Any regional management team would have been happy to oblige CAL. But it was skywest 16% compensation deficit compared to XJT at the time that led to our CEO being forced to sign the EXACT CPA that JA negotiated with CAL.
PSS. Its not that I necessarily don't beleive you have a true ASAP. Its that without the ASAP MOU, I don't know how yours would work the same way others do. So until someone produces it, then I'll just keep on saying it doesn't exist because it doesn't without an MOU signed by the FAA, management, and a pilot representative.
Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Everyone's perspective put aside, the facts remain the same. SW pilots are relatively happy with their compensation and Xjet pilots are not. No amount of whining is going to change this. And SW pilots are not going to carry Xjet water just to put an end to their whining. Most SW pilots didn't have any issues with ASA. In fact I think you could characterize the two work groups working well together. Coat tails comments are laughable. Only after a 3rd dance partner joined, one which in the eyes of SW pilots seemed destined for the dust bin, did the problems begin. Assuming the OP really wants unity, I can tell you no one at SW wants anything to do with a small, vocal, group of XJet guys who's only contribution is to point out how far they have fallen.
07-12-2013, 11:12 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 495
Originally Posted by Nevets
The point is that you will NEVER set the bar! You can't. You have less leverage than us. Your own pilots even admit ad naseum that they are happy with their middle of the pack compensation and that they don't want to set the bar. The fact that your management came back with another offer is either because they reshuffled the money or managment didn't negotiate in good faith (saying that is all they could afford when it wasnt) or SAPA unable to attain all of the pie available for pilot compensation. In any case, its always compared to what others pay with their own money to negotiate with their intransigent management. And even in this thread, its been proven that our CEO doesn't even have the balls to show his face in our crew rooms like he does yours yet we are to beleive he is equally benevolent. Or is it that collectively, you don't care about the plight of your CEO's other work groups?
YES, Skywest is riding the coat tails. And its not even so much about compensation (although you are supposed to get whatever 401k matching, health benefits, and scope we get) but more about all the safety aspects that pilot unions pay for every day that you take advantage of. Just one other example on top of known cremember is CASS. Anyway, even you riding the coat tails on our 401k matching, health benefits, and scope, you don't think that that is a drag on our negotiations and that that doesn't make us use more negotiating leverage to increase or even keep any of those? We are negotiating for ALL skywest pilots! If you think that isn't coat tail riding, then you are hopeless.
PS. Trust me, most of us at LXJT understand exactly where the whipsaw came from. JA just saw an opportunity and went for it. Any regional management team would have been happy to oblige CAL. But it was skywest 16% compensation deficit compared to XJT at the time that led to our CEO being forced to sign the EXACT CPA that JA negotiated with CAL.
PSS. Its not that I necessarily don't beleive you have a true ASAP. Its that without the ASAP MOU, I don't know how yours would work the same way others do. So until someone produces it, then I'll just keep on saying it doesn't exist because it doesn't without an MOU signed by the FAA, management, and a pilot representative.
Its not about Skywest pilots carrying any water. On the contrary, I mean exactly the opposite when I use the term coat tail riding. Yet, in some twisted view you see it the other way around. Anyway, we were not the ones asked to have a dance. That was your daddy who asked us to dance by buying us. Now he has another wife and the others ones are mad at him for taking on another one.
YES, Skywest is riding the coat tails. And its not even so much about compensation (although you are supposed to get whatever 401k matching, health benefits, and scope we get) but more about all the safety aspects that pilot unions pay for every day that you take advantage of. Just one other example on top of known cremember is CASS. Anyway, even you riding the coat tails on our 401k matching, health benefits, and scope, you don't think that that is a drag on our negotiations and that that doesn't make us use more negotiating leverage to increase or even keep any of those? We are negotiating for ALL skywest pilots! If you think that isn't coat tail riding, then you are hopeless.
PS. Trust me, most of us at LXJT understand exactly where the whipsaw came from. JA just saw an opportunity and went for it. Any regional management team would have been happy to oblige CAL. But it was skywest 16% compensation deficit compared to XJT at the time that led to our CEO being forced to sign the EXACT CPA that JA negotiated with CAL.
PSS. Its not that I necessarily don't beleive you have a true ASAP. Its that without the ASAP MOU, I don't know how yours would work the same way others do. So until someone produces it, then I'll just keep on saying it doesn't exist because it doesn't without an MOU signed by the FAA, management, and a pilot representative.
Its not about Skywest pilots carrying any water. On the contrary, I mean exactly the opposite when I use the term coat tail riding. Yet, in some twisted view you see it the other way around. Anyway, we were not the ones asked to have a dance. That was your daddy who asked us to dance by buying us. Now he has another wife and the others ones are mad at him for taking on another one.
SkyWest ASAP MOU
07-12-2013, 12:22 PM
#158
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by PerpetualFlyer
Here, you damn troll. It's obvious you know nothing about this side of the house, so why don't you just do us all a favor and keep your misguided opinion to yourself.
SkyWest ASAP MOU
SkyWest ASAP MOU
07-13-2013, 10:46 AM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by Nevets
Its not about Skywest pilots carrying any water. On the contrary, I mean exactly the opposite when I use the term coat tail riding. Yet, in some twisted view you see it the other way around. Anyway, we were not the ones asked to have a dance. That was your daddy who asked us to dance by buying us. Now he has another wife and the others ones are mad at him for taking on another one.
07-13-2013, 10:51 AM
#160
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Originally Posted by JustAMushroom
Originally Posted by Nevets
Its not about Skywest pilots carrying any water. On the contrary, I mean exactly the opposite when I use the term coat tail riding. Yet, in some twisted view you see it the other way around. Anyway, we were not the ones asked to have a dance. That was your daddy who asked us to dance by buying us. Now he has another wife and the others ones are mad at him for taking on another one.
Skywest broke and then bought it. It's kind of hilarious that we are the part of the anchor they threw out themselves. Oh well, not my problem.
By the way, ASA is losing money because of the rate reset that took place shortly after Skywest bought us. BH even mentioned it on one of his "cost competitive" weekly updates.
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