Best response to Kit Darby ever!
07-27-2013, 03:45 PM
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Best response to Kit Darby ever!
Flyboy
on May 15, 2013 - 7:19am
Low-Paid Internship?
You state, "True, regional airline first officer (FO) pay is not now a living wage. Why not approach this period as a low-paid apprenticeship?"
First of all, low-paid internships are usually usually short in duration, and during a period of time where the individual is not already trained in the area of work. Being a regional pilot lasts a decade or more now, and the pilots are already fully trained pilots when they arrive. Today, a pilot can expect to remain a First Officer at a regional airline for 5 to 10 years. During this time, they make less money per month than the cost of simply repaying their flight loans and student loans. Since they cannot declare bankruptcy on those loans, they have to either have their credit ratings destroyed, or they have to continue education until they become Captains. In order to keep their loans in deferment through education, they may add hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional student loans over the time it take to become a Captain and have the income to actually afford their loans.
You state, "Find a way to survive the low-paying regional FO years remembering that even regional captains, after five years, start at $70,000 per year."
The problem with this is that the pilot is unlikely to actually be a regional CA at fifth year, they are instead likely to still be a reserve FO that doesn't even break guarantee at that point. This means a gross income of about $2,700 per month. That is less than $2,000 in take-home pay. With that, they have to somehow pay for food at airports and hotels for as much as 20 days out of the month, being away from home as much as all but 11 days each month. Anyone who has traveled knows that food at airports and hotels doesn't come cheap, especially not remotely healthy food.
You state, "There is still an incentive to get to the major carriers. My 35-year career value at the majors places the average career—pay, benefits and retirement—at nearly $11 million in 2013 dollars. Average FO starting pay is $50,000, increasing to $95,000 after five years. A starting captain after 10 years averages $125,000, and typical captains make $155,000. Top annual captain pay averages $200,000 and peaks at $280,000."
In order to become an airline pilot, starting in August, one must be 23 years of age. This means that the absolute maximum amount of time that a career can last (with an age 65 mandatory retirement) is 42 years. If we use even the maximum of 42 years, let us look at the numbers. Right now, it takes about 7-10 years to become a captain at a regional airline. Let's use 7 years. In that 7 years, take-home pay will be about $24,000 per year. So... $168,000 in the first 7 years. Then, it takes about another 7-10 years as a regional airline captain to be hired to a major airline. Again, using only 7 years as a regional CA, with an average take home pay of about $48,000 per year another $336,000 will be made. The average most junior CA at the major airlines is 15 years, so the next 15 years at a major airline, for this relatively lucky pilot would be as a major airline FO. The average hourly wage you will make is $92 per hour over that time period, with an average of 68 hours of guarantee per month. This comes out to about $4,750 per month in take-home pay on average per month. This comes out to $855,000 over that 15 years. The pilot is now 29 years into their maximum 42-year career. They can now be a CA at the major airline for the next 13 years, if they are lucky enough to remain healthy and never be furloughed. They could make as much as $255 per hour, but only if they are the most senior on the biggest plane during this time. As a fresh CA, they can make as little as $114 per hour. If we say that they will progress linearly up the aircraft scale, we can average those two out for the average pay per hour that they can expect, which is $184.50 per hour. Again at 68 hours per month, this is about $12,546 per month in take-home pay. This is also an average that equates to 25.5 years into their career, if everything went perfectly for them. This means that over their last 13 years, they could make $1,957,176 more in take-home pay. This means a total of $3,316,176 in take-home pay over their 42-year career. Even put as gross income, that is only $4,365,000. Subtract out about $250,000+interest (so $500,000) in flight training loans, student loans, and credit card debt to get through the years as a regional FO, and the gross income over 42 years is really only $3,865,000. That is over $9 million less than you estimated over only 35 years. It is also an average of only $92,000 per year over the 42-year career. This again assumes that the pilot is never furloughed (unlikely to be that lucky) and that they upgrade more quickly than the current averages.
Finally, you state, "Average retirement is fully company paid at about 12% of annual compensation, and peaks at 16% (United Airlines). Plus, it is yours the moment it is paid and cannot be lost like in the past."
The truth of the matter is that the retirement compensation are only 401K matches, and average around 2%-5%. The 16% is no longer available to pilots that are hired now. That money is not the pilot's, until they retire or loan against their 401K. Over 42 years, it adds up, but we are talking only about $77,300 to $193,250 in total company addition to retirement. That is an average of $150 to $400 per month. It is not insubstantial, but it is not it is not huge, either.
Ultimately, it can be a fun job, but it really only comes out well financially if one is really lucky. Many pilots get furloughed, and have to start back at the bottom of the pay-scales. This would mean doubling the first have of the pay-scale, instead of the top half, lending to an average annual income of around $60,000 to $70,000. This is about par (or lower) for the amount of pay that can be expected in return for the education costs invested that are found in other professional jobs. Despite that, the first 7-10 years are paid at annual wages that are lower than many near minimum wage jobs, something found in no other professional industry, period. Some may have internships for up to a year, but not for 5, 10, or even 20 years. You make some good points, but your numbers are overly optimistic, and not at all reasonably attainable.
Kit's response later in the thread I found I kid you not!!!:
The "Study"
This survey is a single data point with no previous reference so we do not know if the "trend" is up or down? Flying without references will produce vertigo every time. Asking young pilots who have never had the job about the job is of limited value.
on May 15, 2013 - 7:19am
Low-Paid Internship?
You state, "True, regional airline first officer (FO) pay is not now a living wage. Why not approach this period as a low-paid apprenticeship?"
First of all, low-paid internships are usually usually short in duration, and during a period of time where the individual is not already trained in the area of work. Being a regional pilot lasts a decade or more now, and the pilots are already fully trained pilots when they arrive. Today, a pilot can expect to remain a First Officer at a regional airline for 5 to 10 years. During this time, they make less money per month than the cost of simply repaying their flight loans and student loans. Since they cannot declare bankruptcy on those loans, they have to either have their credit ratings destroyed, or they have to continue education until they become Captains. In order to keep their loans in deferment through education, they may add hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional student loans over the time it take to become a Captain and have the income to actually afford their loans.
You state, "Find a way to survive the low-paying regional FO years remembering that even regional captains, after five years, start at $70,000 per year."
The problem with this is that the pilot is unlikely to actually be a regional CA at fifth year, they are instead likely to still be a reserve FO that doesn't even break guarantee at that point. This means a gross income of about $2,700 per month. That is less than $2,000 in take-home pay. With that, they have to somehow pay for food at airports and hotels for as much as 20 days out of the month, being away from home as much as all but 11 days each month. Anyone who has traveled knows that food at airports and hotels doesn't come cheap, especially not remotely healthy food.
You state, "There is still an incentive to get to the major carriers. My 35-year career value at the majors places the average career—pay, benefits and retirement—at nearly $11 million in 2013 dollars. Average FO starting pay is $50,000, increasing to $95,000 after five years. A starting captain after 10 years averages $125,000, and typical captains make $155,000. Top annual captain pay averages $200,000 and peaks at $280,000."
In order to become an airline pilot, starting in August, one must be 23 years of age. This means that the absolute maximum amount of time that a career can last (with an age 65 mandatory retirement) is 42 years. If we use even the maximum of 42 years, let us look at the numbers. Right now, it takes about 7-10 years to become a captain at a regional airline. Let's use 7 years. In that 7 years, take-home pay will be about $24,000 per year. So... $168,000 in the first 7 years. Then, it takes about another 7-10 years as a regional airline captain to be hired to a major airline. Again, using only 7 years as a regional CA, with an average take home pay of about $48,000 per year another $336,000 will be made. The average most junior CA at the major airlines is 15 years, so the next 15 years at a major airline, for this relatively lucky pilot would be as a major airline FO. The average hourly wage you will make is $92 per hour over that time period, with an average of 68 hours of guarantee per month. This comes out to about $4,750 per month in take-home pay on average per month. This comes out to $855,000 over that 15 years. The pilot is now 29 years into their maximum 42-year career. They can now be a CA at the major airline for the next 13 years, if they are lucky enough to remain healthy and never be furloughed. They could make as much as $255 per hour, but only if they are the most senior on the biggest plane during this time. As a fresh CA, they can make as little as $114 per hour. If we say that they will progress linearly up the aircraft scale, we can average those two out for the average pay per hour that they can expect, which is $184.50 per hour. Again at 68 hours per month, this is about $12,546 per month in take-home pay. This is also an average that equates to 25.5 years into their career, if everything went perfectly for them. This means that over their last 13 years, they could make $1,957,176 more in take-home pay. This means a total of $3,316,176 in take-home pay over their 42-year career. Even put as gross income, that is only $4,365,000. Subtract out about $250,000+interest (so $500,000) in flight training loans, student loans, and credit card debt to get through the years as a regional FO, and the gross income over 42 years is really only $3,865,000. That is over $9 million less than you estimated over only 35 years. It is also an average of only $92,000 per year over the 42-year career. This again assumes that the pilot is never furloughed (unlikely to be that lucky) and that they upgrade more quickly than the current averages.
Finally, you state, "Average retirement is fully company paid at about 12% of annual compensation, and peaks at 16% (United Airlines). Plus, it is yours the moment it is paid and cannot be lost like in the past."
The truth of the matter is that the retirement compensation are only 401K matches, and average around 2%-5%. The 16% is no longer available to pilots that are hired now. That money is not the pilot's, until they retire or loan against their 401K. Over 42 years, it adds up, but we are talking only about $77,300 to $193,250 in total company addition to retirement. That is an average of $150 to $400 per month. It is not insubstantial, but it is not it is not huge, either.
Ultimately, it can be a fun job, but it really only comes out well financially if one is really lucky. Many pilots get furloughed, and have to start back at the bottom of the pay-scales. This would mean doubling the first have of the pay-scale, instead of the top half, lending to an average annual income of around $60,000 to $70,000. This is about par (or lower) for the amount of pay that can be expected in return for the education costs invested that are found in other professional jobs. Despite that, the first 7-10 years are paid at annual wages that are lower than many near minimum wage jobs, something found in no other professional industry, period. Some may have internships for up to a year, but not for 5, 10, or even 20 years. You make some good points, but your numbers are overly optimistic, and not at all reasonably attainable.
Kit's response later in the thread I found I kid you not!!!:
The "Study"
This survey is a single data point with no previous reference so we do not know if the "trend" is up or down? Flying without references will produce vertigo every time. Asking young pilots who have never had the job about the job is of limited value.
Last edited by BD100; 07-27-2013 at 03:56 PM. Reason: new info
07-27-2013, 04:02 PM
#2
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 65
Another great response
Career
The entire string of comments has brought many memories flooding back - to where I began and where I have now ended a 38-year military and commercial avitaion and flight safety career.
The comments about the self-serving Mr Darby are spot on - the long mentioned pilot shortage will not occur UNTIL the pipeline is no longer full with major airline wannabe's. In other words, the airlines and ALPA/CALPA, USAPA, SWAPA and all the pilot unions take care of themselves. Think that is not so? How about going from 60 to age 65? Think that alleviated the shortage that had been predicted for this decade? Think again! At last check, I believe the overall number of student pilot apps in the US was down about 40%.
It is no longer perceived as a career because of all the conditions that have already been listed in previous emails. On a trip into SEA one day, I had a young female XCM who was very happy she was being furloughed as she could go do something else now - she had checked off this box in her overall working career as being done. She was leaving the industry. Unfortunately, this typifies the thought that this is no longer a career but merely a short stepping stone to something new and different down the road.
I have two sons who wanted almost desperately to follow in my footsteps. Luckily, they saw my time away from family, from soccer and footbale and all sorts of events, the fatigue once home, the constant packing and travelling and my strong suggestions that they do something that will ALWAYS be needed (such as an orthopedic surgeon, physical therapist or an engineer) be followed as career paths.
Kit, you have milked this cow for as long as I have been flying - in fact I used your service prior to being hired by the NWA in 1986. It might be time for you to stop leading these young folks down the path that is NOT what you and I had when we were much younger! Of course, I'm sure it will be very hard for you to give up a cash cow and stop misleading the young pilots - try telling them how it really is! Stats can and often are made to fit the solution being presented - as you clearly have done on here!
If you continue, Kit, you are doing them a strong disservice!
Was it a good career? In my case, I was very lucky and it was great...only had a couple of strikes to survive, some furloughs that did not reach me, so my career was unscathed...but I am one of the few whose career is unscathed - remember that!
Would I do it again?
In this environment with chain smoking mental midgets strip searching me at TSA, mid-level manager 24-year old whiz kids who challenge a captain's authoirty because they think they know operations better, needing to justify why I need more fuel for a given flight, having drunk and disorderly passengers who are just butt heads, flying aircraft with MEL items that should have been fixed a week earlier and the onus is on the crew to nurse it around the system, not to mention the routine last minute line-of-sight scheduling that is so pervasive...shoould I keep going to help some of you make a different decision?
I love to fly...always have and will...but not the way it is in this day and age...not worth it anymore! I believe the statistical average age of death for an airline pilot is around 62...think about that and consider your longevity! Do not think Mr Darby bothered to mention that part in his trying to gain new clients!
The entire string of comments has brought many memories flooding back - to where I began and where I have now ended a 38-year military and commercial avitaion and flight safety career.
The comments about the self-serving Mr Darby are spot on - the long mentioned pilot shortage will not occur UNTIL the pipeline is no longer full with major airline wannabe's. In other words, the airlines and ALPA/CALPA, USAPA, SWAPA and all the pilot unions take care of themselves. Think that is not so? How about going from 60 to age 65? Think that alleviated the shortage that had been predicted for this decade? Think again! At last check, I believe the overall number of student pilot apps in the US was down about 40%.
It is no longer perceived as a career because of all the conditions that have already been listed in previous emails. On a trip into SEA one day, I had a young female XCM who was very happy she was being furloughed as she could go do something else now - she had checked off this box in her overall working career as being done. She was leaving the industry. Unfortunately, this typifies the thought that this is no longer a career but merely a short stepping stone to something new and different down the road.
I have two sons who wanted almost desperately to follow in my footsteps. Luckily, they saw my time away from family, from soccer and footbale and all sorts of events, the fatigue once home, the constant packing and travelling and my strong suggestions that they do something that will ALWAYS be needed (such as an orthopedic surgeon, physical therapist or an engineer) be followed as career paths.
Kit, you have milked this cow for as long as I have been flying - in fact I used your service prior to being hired by the NWA in 1986. It might be time for you to stop leading these young folks down the path that is NOT what you and I had when we were much younger! Of course, I'm sure it will be very hard for you to give up a cash cow and stop misleading the young pilots - try telling them how it really is! Stats can and often are made to fit the solution being presented - as you clearly have done on here!
If you continue, Kit, you are doing them a strong disservice!
Was it a good career? In my case, I was very lucky and it was great...only had a couple of strikes to survive, some furloughs that did not reach me, so my career was unscathed...but I am one of the few whose career is unscathed - remember that!
Would I do it again?
In this environment with chain smoking mental midgets strip searching me at TSA, mid-level manager 24-year old whiz kids who challenge a captain's authoirty because they think they know operations better, needing to justify why I need more fuel for a given flight, having drunk and disorderly passengers who are just butt heads, flying aircraft with MEL items that should have been fixed a week earlier and the onus is on the crew to nurse it around the system, not to mention the routine last minute line-of-sight scheduling that is so pervasive...shoould I keep going to help some of you make a different decision?
I love to fly...always have and will...but not the way it is in this day and age...not worth it anymore! I believe the statistical average age of death for an airline pilot is around 62...think about that and consider your longevity! Do not think Mr Darby bothered to mention that part in his trying to gain new clients!
07-27-2013, 07:18 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: Supreme Allied Commander
Posts: 1,054
What about me and the many others like me who did actual unpaid internships just so we could get a regional job? Or how about the fact that a regional airline pilot is not an entry level professional job..but one that comes after years of professional work experience just to meet ATP minimums?
07-27-2013, 07:43 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: A320
Posts: 1,308
Originally Posted by Anderson
You knew what you were getting into when you came here. You didn't listen to anyone who told you not to come here, so deal with your 1600/month.
.
07-27-2013, 09:20 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 690
Originally Posted by afterburn81
, thank you for lowering the bar.
.
07-28-2013, 12:11 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 910
Originally Posted by Anderson
You knew what you were getting into when you came here. You didn't listen to anyone who told you not to come here, so deal with your 1600/month.
Did you read the CBA of the company you interviewed with before you got hired? I'm betting not. No one foresees anything in this industry. No pilot can predict upgrade times or forecast hiring plans years in advance.
Yes, you have a vague idea of what you are getting into when you sign on, but no one knows what's behind the curtain until you're actually on the stage.
So please, do us all a favor. Retire that "you knew what you were getting into" BS immediately.
Last edited by flyprdu; 07-28-2013 at 12:27 AM.
07-28-2013, 01:22 AM
#9
ILL BEE DAT
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Rollin' Down tha 405
Posts: 2,549
Originally Posted by flyprdu
Did you read the CBA of the company you interviewed with before you got hired? I'm betting not.
A house?
Get a credit card?
Hire someone for a GFE?
You signed on the dotted line when you showed up. You knew the pay and work rules sucked if you did your homework.
I'm kinda tired of reading the whole "I didn't do my research therefore RAH/TSA/MESA is a horrible company" thing. Not picking you out personally just sayin'
07-28-2013, 01:39 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590
Ever buy a car?
A house?
Get a credit card?
Hire someone for a GFE?
You signed on the dotted line when you showed up. You knew the pay and work rules sucked if you did your homework.
I'm kinda tired of reading the whole "I didn't do my research therefore RAH/TSA/MESA is a horrible company" thing. Not picking you out personally just sayin'
A house?
Get a credit card?
Hire someone for a GFE?
You signed on the dotted line when you showed up. You knew the pay and work rules sucked if you did your homework.
I'm kinda tired of reading the whole "I didn't do my research therefore RAH/TSA/MESA is a horrible company" thing. Not picking you out personally just sayin'
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