ALPA's Race to the Bottom
 

In light of PSA's new TA, at what point do we hold ALPA liable? There is something to be said for letting each pilot having a vote to determine their own fate. However, at some point, I feel that ALPA needs to step in and take the gun out of certain pilots' hands. At some point, it seems that a union that continually promotes the demise of the members it represents, needs to be held accountable.

What are everyone's thoughts? Is it time to lead a decert ALPA movement yet? I'm not saying to be non-unionized, but it seems ALPA in particular has become either quite corrupt, or quite complacent.

Union Facts : How To Decertify Your Union


HOW TO DECERTIFY YOUR UNION
Sample Decertification Forms


PDF Document


Word Document

Employees who no longer want a union to represent them — whether it's because the union is undemocratic, corrupt, violent, or just plain inept — are entitled to seek an election to determine if a majority of their coworkers want to drop the union. Such elections, which are conducted by the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), are known as “decertification elections.”

Employees who want to vote a union out must circulate a petition calling for a decertification election. A sample petition is available below. They should not seek help from their employer, because the union can then complain that an unfair labor practice has tainted the election. Employees may take advantage of outside assistance, though. Signatures should be collected on non-work time and in non-work areas. It is important that the names of the union and the company be filled in before any signatures are collected.

It doesn't matter why the employees are dissatisfied. But there are some timing issues that are important. The NLRB has a rule that a new union is given one year to represent the workers before a decertification election can be held. Unions that have already negotiated a contract for employees can usually be subjected to a decertification election near the expiration of the contract. Therefore, workers with an old union should start their decertification drive a few months prior to the expiration of their contract to be sure they don't miss their window of opportunity.

If at least 30 percent of the workers in the bargaining unit sign the petition, then it must be sent to the NLRB's closest regional office, along with a cover sheet, NLRB Form 502. Once the petitions have been received and validated, the NLRB will set a date for the decertification election, usually about 60 days in the future. Individuals on both sides may campaign to sway the employees. When the vote is held, if a majority of the workers who participate favor decertifying the union, or if the vote results in a tie, then the NLRB will officially remove the union's recognition as the bargaining representative of the workers.

Ever heard of the NMB?

In my opinion, ALPA is not on the side of the regional pilots. They fight for the mainlines. That's where the money comes from. Think about it. If your pay goes up (regional pilots in general), where do you think the money will come from? Regionals can't pay more because they will lose the contract. In fact, they are in a race to the bottom to underbid each other. Their pilots go along with it in fear of losing their jobs to the next guy. If the mainlines don't raise ticket prices then the mainline pilots will take the hit - equally undesirable . This is where the unions should step in and fight with one voice across the entire industry. But, what do we hear?..... Crickets!

The only way regional pilots will earn a livable wage is to get union representation specific to the regional airline industry. Unfortunately, the way management and mainline unions have allowed things to progress, regional pilot pay is in direct conflict to mainline pilot pay. Regional pilots must speak with a single voice across the entire regional industry in order to lift up the entire profession. I.e. what a union is supposed to do, and what ALPA hasn't done.

Hopefully this will drive more pilot jobs to the mainline and at the same time allow regional pilots to make a livable wage. My hope would also be that ALPA would continue to hold the line for mainline pilots pay at the same time with the end result of higher ticket prices to the customers. In my humble opinion this is the only way to put the cat back in the bag when it comes to Scope issues. Some may disagree, but I think the road we are headed down towards a European style of pilot apprenticeship would be less desirable.

IMO ALPA National is a convenient scapegoat in this issue.

Even though Moak has to sign this agreement...the blame lies SQUARELY on the shoulders of the PSA MEC, Negotiating Chair, and the pilot group.

If the whole USAPA experiment has showed us anything, its that the name of the union might change...but the actual representation the pilot group receives from their elected and appointed peers does not.

What is *should* be and what it *actually* is are two very different things.

It'd sure be easier for regional airlines to be the "stepping stone" they historically have been if mainline pilots would stop ratifying non-concessionary CBAs allowing increasing numbers of increasingly "large small jets" to be outsourced.

It's no stepping stone and it's no apprenticeship. 10 years if you are lucky. Longer if mainline keeps slinging all of these new RJs at us.

What's the longevity at the average regional? 4 years in the RHS, probably 10 years for CA's? Wild guesses of course. I agree with you, to the extent that I frown every time I see a large aircraft being operated by a regional airline, but the reality is that when you've been there 6 years before you can get out, that's not really a stepping stone is it? That's more like a career.

Better?


Decertification under the Railway Labor Act

Under the Railway Labor Act, there is no "deauthorization" procedure (a procedure by which employees can simply get rid of the "union shop" forced unionism clause in a contract between a union and their employer), but there is a way to possibly "decertify" or entirely get rid of the union from the work place:
Railway and airline employees have the right to oust a union as their exclusive bargaining agent if a majority of the employees in a "craft or class" sign cards authorizing a fellow employee to serve as their "representative" and that employee files an application for "Investigation of Representational Dispute" with the National Mediation Board (NMB). Once all of this is submitted (further instructions on this are below) the NMB then would hold a vote that allows for:
a) Representation by the individual employee representative mentioned above,
b) no representation by any representative or union, or
c) to keep the current union.
This process is the only way to bring about a vote on a new representative or no representative at all.
The following link is to a public NMB case file of railroad employees who went through with this process. A majority of employees signed cards in support of a fellow employee being their representative, and then voted for no representation in the subsequent election: http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2012/39n026.pdf
A majority of the craft or class need to sign authorization cards in support of an election for the employee representative. They are then free to vote however they like (including for “no representation”) in the subsequent election. Details about the cards are below and so is a sample authorization card.
"Authorization cards: An authorization card is a card or document signed by the employee which states that the employee desires to be represented by an organization or individual for collective bargaining purposes.
Authorization cards must have the name of the organization or individual seeking to represent the craft or class, and must be signed and dated by the employee. Typically, authorization cards also include the following information: employee address, telephone number, job title, employee number, and social security number. The NMB compares the signed authorization cards to the List of Potential Eligible Voters supplied by the carrier to determine the percentage of employees signing authorization cards (generally referred to as the "showing of interest").
The language on authorization cards must be unambiguous and the NMB must be able to determine the employee's intent." (Source)
After the cards are signed, this form along with originals of the signed authorization cards would need to be submitted by the new potential employee representative to the NMB at the following address (certified or traceable mail is advised and copies should be made of the authorization cards for safe keeping):
National Mediation Board
1301 K. St. NW, Suite 250 East
Washington, DC 20005-7011
Furthermore, the individual who would be the representative should also send in a one page "notice of appearance" with their information and the role that they are playing in the process to the above NMB address. This notice of appearance must include name, title, address, telephone and fax number (if applicable), and e-mail address.
A detailed account of the whole procedure is available here, but remember that an individual employee representative would be in the role of the union: http://www.nmb.gov/representation/re...ion-manual.pdf
The case that established the right of railway and airline employees to opt for non-representation is Russell v. NMB, 714 F.2d 1332 (5th Cir. 1983), in which a Foundation attorney represented the employees who wanted no union representation. If you would like a copy of the Russell decision, please let us know (include your postal address), and we will mail it to you.
Also, if you want legal advice in pursuing "decertification" under Russell, please notify us and your request for assistance will be referred to a Staff Attorney.


Sample of an authorization card:

Signing This Authorization Is NOT A Vote For Or Against Any Representative or No Representation. It Simply Authorizes The NMB To Hold An Election. You Are Free To Vote, By Secret Ballot, For Whomever You Wish.
Authorization Card
I, _________(Name of Employee)______________, authorize ______(Name of Potential New Representative)________ to petition the NMB on my behalf for purposes of holding a representation election under the Railway Labor Act for the craft or class of_______(“Craft or class” at issue)_______ employed by _________(Employer)__________.
Date: ___________________ Signed: ________________________________
(Written by Employee) (Signed by Employee)
Employee #: _____________ Address: ________________________________

Phone # _________________ City, ST Zip: _____________________________
You are not casting a vote either way by filling out the above Authorization Card. You are simply calling for the National Mediation Board to hold an Election. The signed card is valid for one year. Fifty percent plus one is needed to petition the NMB for an election.

Source
Decertification under the Railway Labor Act | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

Did your pilot group, or did you pilot group not vote to allow this to happen? I have no idea what company that you work for but I would assume that in some way or another you voted to allow this. Odds are that the details about large RJs were glossed over in favor of more interesting things such as your pay going up again. Not a personal attack at all. Your comment just allowed me to make a point. Thanks for understanding that regionals are not stepping stones.

Which pilot group was I a member of that voted out scope?

ALPA's Race to the Bottom
 

I said I did not know what airline you were with and it was not a personal attack. Your comment just allowed me to ask the question. Some pilots did vote out scope. Said pilots still like to grumble about RJs. That is all.

You said it wasn't personal, but it didn't sound that way at all. All good though. I'm a fellow RJ pilot. I don't believe larger RJ's have any place at regional airlines. Those are mainline aircraft, flown on mainline routes. Unless I'm paid at mainline rates, I'm not interested in flying them.

I think you just made a case for the anti-ALPA side. If there is no difference in representation, my question would be why have ALPA? What benefit does ALPA specifically bring to the table? I thought it was supposed to be strength in numbers across multiple pilot groups, all pushing towards a common goal, but this is not what ALPA accomplishes.

This ^^^^ I couldn't have said it any better.

Did we just become best friends? I totally agree.

It's sad that a pilot group that's making money would accept concessions. What's going to happen when the airline is losing money? How are they gonna say no to concessions? At that point, I'd argue that they deserve it...we'll the yes voters anyway. Sad that the sensible 39% of PSA pilots have to accept this crap.

Ladies please,

Seriously can we please agree ALPA is a complete conflict of interest here ? Brothers and sisters at Expressjet Skywest and Republic. Please stay strong. Look at your numbers know what you are worth. If mother delta calls me tomorrow great, till then ill work hard to leave this a better place I found it.


Kudos to our friends at eagle.

This +2 ......

Agree with you 100%. ALPA could serve BOTH the mainline and regional side at one time by doing what you said. Ensure the majority of the jobs are at mainline along with the large small jets. The job protection of the mainline side would be there and protected. The career of the regional pilot would ALSO be protected by keeping the large RJ's at mainline, with the job waiting for the regional pilot. As opposed to the proliferation/expansion of airplanes at the regionals and the stagnation that created. Of course, the post 9/11 BK era throws a major wrench in that .

As far as the bolded part. The "historically" part is getting farther and farther away and possibly never seen again. The stagnation tenure of the regionals now is new "historical".

If it was as easy as outlined above, imagine how the career would be different? Sucks.......

Couldn't agree more. I really do feel for the 39% that voted No. If a NO voter needs help getting on at SkyWest I'll make a call and give 'em a free place to stay during the interview. Just get away from the flaming gas truck of PSA as fast as you can. If you voted yes, you can sleep on the beach of the Salt Lake (it's not a nice beach) and I'll make a call to ensure you don't get hired.

Kudos to Eagle for turning down their concession and now even to Republic for the latest letter sent to Management by their union. I hope we can all hold strong to try to save what's left of the industry. I'm still hopeful we can negotiate for a raise here at SkyWest and at XJet..and any other regional that has pilots who in a majority respect themselves. $20 million profit in a quarter isn't quite the 409 million made by the US Airways group but it's still a damn good profit for Inc.

This is incorrect and does not apply to RLA governed labor groups.
Ours takes 50% and is not a decertification, it is a replacement.

you essentially need 50%+1 to sign cards for who you want to replace your current bargaining agent. So, if you are ALPA, you'd sign cards for Teamsters or whomever... if you wanted no union representation, you'd pick a single pilot at your company and designate him/her as your rep.

It's amazing just how far down an organization can fall. Back in the days when the "Flying the Line" series of books was published by ALPA chronicling the fight of airline pilots to gain and maintain respectability and fair compensation as well as the strategies used, ALPA stood for something........or at the very least gave that impression.

Now, after Moaks Letter..............actually his REVELATION, it's clear the entire regional pilot industry MUST seperate itself from this hopelessly irrelevent and now pointless entity. It's clear that not only has ALPA become simply the flip side of the same coin as the traditional pilots adversary, their impending financial state is headed for disaster and ultimately, it will be their pilots that will fott the bill. They've been sued multiple times for DFR faliure and have previously settled out of court under a veil of secrecy that other corporations use, they've disregarded the very principles they claim to espouse when dealing with their own labor and now soon could be bankrupted by the latest in their series of FALIURE to represent their pilots (TWA).

Given all that, it seems clear that ALPA has simply become a entity solely concerned with circling their financial wagons and that is likely a major reason why they have little interest in expending financial resources for regional pilots. Before Moak's letter to the PSA pilots, the same basic message of capitulation was communicated to the Eagle pilots. If you are a regional and ALPA, you really are represented by a ghost.

An expensive ghost, but a ghost.

Well said, Eaglefly.

Republic guys and gals, what are your impressions of IBT? What has your experience been so far?

Very well said. I haven't always agreed with you in the past, and wasn't on board with all of your negativity towards ALPA, but it turns out you've been 100 percent right on this. ALPA has got to go. I don't want to give another f*cking dime to those worthless pieces of ****. I'm done with them.

Very disappointed in the level of pressure put
on the NMB by Teamsters National to move toward
release. However I was an ALPA member at a
National airline and our pilot group was sold out by Lee
Moak. Is there a third option?

Sounds like how negotiations went with ALPA at Piedmont. After about 4 years, and very little headway, they wouldn't release us either. Nothing like giving all leverage to management.

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I thought one could be part of any union. It might make the most sense to start a regional airline pilot union from the ground up though, in order to tailor a constitution and by-laws to help avoid the issues we've seen with ALPA. Above all, most every regional would have to be on board with this, otherwise, the bottom feeders will continue to do what they do best.

Maybe we are all looking at this the wrong way. Maybe if we make pay so bad for ourselves maybe now one will become a pilot. So in 10 years there will actually be a pilot shortage and Mainline will have to take all the large RJ's Back because they are the only airlines to attract pilots. Maybe National ALPA has a long term game plan, that is to let management screw us over so bad no one will want to do this job.:rolleyes:

For those who do not have a sarcasm detector or it is deferred I am being sarcastic. Although they might unintentionally doing this.

What we need is a new union, specifically for regional pilots. One contract that applies to all represented pilot groups. Set, specific payscales. Your group signs on, this is the contract. Period. And this would eliminate the whipsaw issues.

It will, however, require Congress to repeal the RLA, but it seems the RLA has outlived it's usefullness, and is now more of a hinderence.

ID

ALPA's Race to the Bottom
 

If ALPA isn't for the regionals (which this PSA debacle proves so) and IBT isn't, then the regional airlines should either look at UTU or forming their own representation.
After signing off on that PSA deal, I'm surprised there hasn't been a mutiny amongst alpa regional carriers.