It's all propaganda
 

I consider myself to be the type of person who thoroughly researches things before I decide to actually make an important decision. Since I was 12, I have wanted to fly and have learned all I could about the process. However, I believe there are many other good people out there who want to fly as well, but get sucked into a training program because of pure propaganda. Let me give you an example. I visited Arizona State University's Polytech campus last year because I was thinking about enrolling in their Prof Flight Program which was ran through Mesa Pilot Development. I met with the Dean Of the Aeronautics Department and he fed me and another young man what I now know is total BS. He talked about how much the airline industry was growing and how many new pilots were going to be needed and how within several years we would be making a really decent amount of money. He talked about the $20 million RJ Sims they had and how a job with Mesa was almost gurantanteed if you completed the program. However, he didnt talk about the crappy pay and working conditions at Mesa. He didnt tell me that I might be sleeping in the planes at night and that Mesa is loathed by the whole industry. What I found really depressing is the fact that this Dean was an older gentleman in his 60s with both prior military and airline experience. He's a guy anyone would trust. Fortunately, my primary flight instructor always advocated the "Non-aviation degree at a state school/train at the local FBO" approach so I decided to not enroll in MAPD. However, I honestly think that a lot of other good people go to these airlines not because they are trying to undermine the airline industry by working for low-pay and in horrible conditions, but because they are suckered in by fancy advertisements. However, there is much to be said with the issue of whether or not these pilots should have done their homework beforehand.

Bill McCurry at ASU? I know him...I was there when the program was getting off the ground (1995-1997) when it was transitioning from the main campus in Tempe out to IWA (ASU East).

What's he supposed to say? Blow all of your money here, everybody will hate you, and you will not be able to pay your loans back at your first year salary? Of course he is going to only tell you the good part.

While a non aviation degree may be a better choice for a backup, significant time can be saved if you choose to get an aviation degree. It saved me over one year, and that can mean a lot of seniority.

Not that I like MPD or anything though.

So you work for Mesa and know exactly what you are talking about? How about the fact that you could be getting an airline job 10 days after your multi commercial check ride? But I suppose under those terms the pay should be the industrys highest. You should sleep on roses and have someone powder you sac every morning.

I still think everyone should have to work a real job (dig a hole, pave a road, tar a roof, sling 14' drywall all day) before getting any job flying airplanes, then you'll know just how hard and dispicable this really isn't regardless of which company you choose to fly for.

One of the best statements in a long time. A crappy day at the airlines really isn't that bad in the big scheme of things. I've been a hole digger, it's nice for about 2 months out of the year, other than that its too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, ect. I'm not saying flying for a regional is a dream job, and there are a lot of things that could be better, but there are a lot worse places to be.

You could say the same to the Doctor or Corporate exec...................

As a Professional Airline Pilot, do you want to compare yourself to a
Unskilled/ minimum wage laborer? Have some self esteem for Pete's sake.

.

How is that? A four year aviation degree takes 4 years and you fly at the same time. My four year non-aviation degree took 4 years and I flew on the side.

No kidding. Unfortunately there are people that have worked crappy jobs and forget about all that the second they get an airline job.

you shouldn't compare a profession to a job.
digging holes is not comparable to being a professional airline pilot.

i agree... everyone should work... i worked in a factory in college to help pay for flight training... however now that i fly the line i deserve more. i worked hard in college to become a professional aviator. the hole digger doesn't owe money in college loans and doesn't have the responsibility that we do. it doesn't mean that his job is any less, it is just different, thus should be the compensation.

Its this kind of attitude that allows our pay to stay Frigging LOW have some Pride about your career and yourself I never considered myself a hole digger but if thats what you want to compare yourself too , more power to you, I wonder how many first year FO are elegible for foodstamps....

I flew at an fbo for a year to earn all of my ratings and then began an aviation degree. I recieved 35 credit hours for that training. That was more than 1/4 of the required hours, leaving less than 3 years for a bachellor's degree. If you don't get an aviation degree you go to college for four years then you have to spend another 9 months to a year earning all of your ratings. Having a family, I couldn't do both at the same time.

Not knocking the state college/non aviation degree plan, just pointing out that you can save a little time if you need to.

While a non aviation degree may be a better choice for a backup, significant time can be saved if you choose to get an aviation degree. It saved me over one year, and that can mean a lot of seniority.

Not that I like MPD or anything though.[/QUOTE]
I disagree...If you do it right, it will be a HUGE advantage to get your ratings through CFI before/during your freshman year and instruct while in school for another degree (while not a good job to make a living on, instructing is a great part-time opportunity). When you graduate, you will exceed regular minimum times for regionals which should mean (depending on reg. choice) a quicker upgrade. Not to mention, you get way more experience and in my experiance at the regional I'm with, you will also get more respect from fellow pilots. Add to that the fact that if/when your airline gets on shakey ground (as most everyone experiences at some point in their career), you will have a least more peace of mind than the aviation degree guy that life will go on in case of a strike or shut down.

Notice how some of the responses too your post refer to only the ditch digger! Ditch digging is unskilled labor only if the entire ditch is dug by hand. Use a backhoe and you will quickly see that it takes much skill and training to operate one safely. The other professions you mentioned are skilled labor and their pay reflects that. In closing, I agree with your statement and would add that if pilots would stop acting like premadonna's we'd be better off.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement! Nobody is lining up to do ditch digging, road paving, roofing, or other labor intense professions for free. Pilots are the only one's lining up to do their jobs for free. How many times have you heard a low timer unwitting say, " I'd do this job for free because I love it so much." This is the attitude that is killing our industry. I am not saying that it isn't ok to love to fly, but why give management more ammuntition to lower the pay.

Here is one more bit of advice that will serve you well if you remember it. Pilots are a nickle-a-dozen. Management has a stack of resume's that if left alone over time would fill the room from floor to ceiling. If you left the company you work for today, they will have you replaced quicker than you could get another job. Even though it is a cycle you go to the bottom of the pile at the next company you apply to. Because management has so many pilots to chose from, and so many pilots would do the job for free, why should pay be better?

In closing, the airline industry could be best compared to the trucking industry. Both industries are competing for a market that demands cheap transportation of people and goods across america. Both industries are affected by high fuel and equipment costs. The cheapest factor in both industries is the workers because there is a high number of people who desire and love the job. If we fix these problems we can then demand to be treated like professionals with a pay that reflects our skill.

I am willing to bet a very small percentage of first year FO's are eligible for food stamps. Further, I am willing to bet that the vast majority of first year FO's are not consider to be poor by their States.

Even though the pay is not where we would like it, it is unlikely that in your firt year you would be considered poor.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/applican...s_Ben_Elig.htm

I agree, VERY few FO's would qualify for food stamps. Although 1st year FO's at Great Lakes would qualify.

I did my first year at skyw!!!!!!!! 16k and reserve the whole time. That after paying 6k to get the damn job.
2 1/2 months no pay (2000$ pay loss from previos job) x 2.5 = 5000$) and 1000$ for my uniform makes 6k. So 16k-6000 dollars = 10k for my first year. I know a lot of guys who were on food stamps their first year, most with familys.
Whats wrong with this industry is people who compare this to digging a ditch, Get a LIFE!

Thank GOD SKW has changed. Not that it's much better but they now pay you 60 hours a month during initial training as well as pay for most of your uniform.

Regional airlines not paying pilots during training is more of a travesty than first your FO pay.

My first full year (12 calendar months from the first day of ground school) at SKW I made $24,300. This included not getting paid for ground school. I’m on pace to make $38K+ my second year and I fly the mighty Bro. Most second year jet FO's are topping $42K. Also, I’ll be upgrading to CA here soon and that will increase my 2 year earnings to above $45K with 3rd year near $60K. Now this is a far cry from the $80K I was making at my previous job but I won’t go into details on why I am MUCH happier.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/applican...s_Ben_Elig.htm

If you read the link you'll see that an individual making 16K a year doesn't qualify for stamps, as sad as that is, but if you have a family then you fall well within the qualifications. That's mainly dependent on you not having much of a second income from your spouse.

Easy for you to say given your present employer! The rest of us here in the trenches still are reminded of it everyday. Did you bypass the commuters? It pays better to dig ditches for most.

Ok, I know I will probably get crap for this, but oh well. In the next few years hiring is expected to increase as fast as the average for all occupations, through atleast 2014, so that is an increase of about 9%-17% in jobs. So more jobs will open, that is not saying it will be easier, because more than likely more people will be applying for those jobs.

As far as pay, Airline Pilots are still considered to have some of the highest pay in the nation, that is according to the U.S. Department of Labor. As far as whether or not you will make a really decent amount will depend on alot of factors, including what you consider really decent. If anything the aviation industry is cyclical, meaning it will get better and get worse, it is still a relatively new industry, that is almost constantly changing. To say that it will only get worse and stay this bad, I think, is being short-sighted, and I think that is one of the reasons for the extreme cyclical affects on the industry, is that people become too short-sighted, believing it will stay the way it is, but just like any other mode of travel, it is directly tied to the economy, and as such will be affected by the economy. As the economy improves so will the industry, the economy wasn't doing too well recently, and neither was the industry, so as the economy begins to get better, so will the aviation industry.

Back to the aviation/non-aviation degree question... I decided after I got my instrument rating to get a non-aviation degree (I was at a 61 school at the local FBO). It has taken me a LONG time, and I have extra debt because of it, not to mention the fact that me non-aviation degree is going to get me jack in the aviation world. If I could do it over again I would get the aviation degree, but I would skip the "career development" programs. I thought they were supposed to pay the pilot to fly the airplane, not the other way around... Thats the biggest scam in aviation.:eek:

Hey D-bag I worked the jobs as a young man that most people would consider the bottom of the barrel. I agree with the young man in that a bad day as an airline pilot still beats digging holes, mowing lawns or slinging drinks. Let me guess, you've put your time in in those types of jobs yet being a big shot airline pilot still bums you out. Dude, get a life. Be grateful for Petes sake.