Federal Minimum Wage for Duty Time
 

Has anyone thought about pushing for the Federal Minimum Wage of $7.25/hr for all duty time outside of flight time? It would bring regional airline pilots up to a living wage and would instantly solve the pilot shortage. Am I dreaming? Would this get through congress?

This is something I could get behind.....The airlines would really cry foul over it though. They complained about 117 and that was only a 5% or so payroll increase. This would turn out to be a pretty massive number.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov

There's no doubt the RAA would kick and scream. But after 117 and the ATP rule I believe anything can happen. And since everyone has to follow the law everyone's cost go up equally nobody gets an unfair advantage. In the name of keeping small town USA from losing air service I think we just might have something. There has been a lot of coverage in the media lately about the pilot shortage but nobody has an easy answer. Americans love a quick fix and this would be the mother of all quick fixes.

For mainline pilots it's a drop in the bucket but for starving regional FO's it would be a significant raise. It brings everybody out of poverty with no need to spend years negotiating raises. A one time across the board raise for everyone.

Airlines fall under the Railway Labor Act and federal minimum wage laws do not apply.

When I was a banner tower, thy used to pay me $7.25 when I was not flying and at work. I can tell you it does makes a difference. That's the way it should be...

$7.25 when on duty and not flying and per diem for every hour you're in the overnight.

Actually I think this is a terrible job. It would be a pay cut for most people.

4 day trip average duty of 12 hours @ $7.25 = $348
4 day trip @ $36 and hour for 16 hour trip (call that average FO pay across the industry the flight time is probably low though) = $576

Even for a new hire it is a bad deal @ $22 for the same trip (probably a good average rate for a new hire) = $352

That minimum wage number would have to come up a lot in order to make it worthwhile.

I think he is talking about getting paid min. wage on duty time in addition to flight pay!?

That's not how the minimum wage works.

Quoting again.

Why not propose a contract that uses TAFB as payment. Works out to be around the same for entry FOs. Which is very sad, considering you are responsible for 50 lives or so. 7.25 per hour would bring it just shy of 33 per flight hour. I believe we need to get paid more than McDonalds workers, but again min wage does not apply.

I use to deliver pizzas. Minimum wage while in the store, then a different rate when you took a delivery. Seems logical to pay pilots the same way.

It's called a duty rig. No contract should ever pass without it! Everyone should have it. Fight for it. If spineless yes men jellyfish union reps pass a TA without it, kick it back and tell them no way...not without duty rigs

So why couldn't we change it? Rules and regulations have been changed in the past, heck even the constitution has been amended.

Duty and Trip rigs would solve this issue.

Though it's worth mentioning that there's at least one airline, Cape Air, that pays per duty hour, not per flight hour.

"We" can't change it, it would take an act of Congress. The RLA is what gives you the right to have union representation and a CBA. To paraphrase TallFlyer, why not just get a better contract?

The solution is a better contract, or apply to a company that offers a better hourly rate. Most places are hiring right at ATP mins anyway. With the duty rigs that are in place, the WORST case scenario for me is an hourly rate of 20 bucks and change.

Paid-by-hour may look good at the initial glance, but not when you look at the multipliers you'd be missing out on based on hourly rate. Here's a good example: My company pays 3rd year FO's $41.36. The minimum daily guarantee is 4 hours. We were incredibly short staffed, and the company was offering 200% pay for picking up open time. I picked up an out-and-back that totalled 2 hours of block time.

Work 2 hours, get paid 8 x 41.36. That's $330.88

My effective hourly rate was $165.44. I was on duty a total of 3 hours, so if you go by that then my hourly rate was $110.29. I'd much rather have the option of doing something like that on my day off rather than change to a system that may or may not help at all. Not to mention the fact that the RLA renders this conversation pointless.



Edit: Also... if the airlines had to pay you by the duty hour PLUS the flight hour, they would just decrease the hourly rate for block time down to minimum wage, and congrats: You'd be a minimum wage worker.

To clarify I meant in addition to hourly flight pay. Sort of like the pizza delivery analogy. I know what the current law is the idea is trying to change the law. And to the person who said they will just cut the flight pay no they won't unless you LET THEM. It's an end run around the entire system. Now if you want to give the money back in negotiations no law can help that.

how about if they should make the Duty time 70 hours with in the last 8 days!
D.O.T for Truckers or bus driver... they are allowed to only 70 hours of duty per 8 days!

just saying its an idea!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Horizon have an older contract that paid by TAFB? I thought I heard senior captains tell me this and after a certain amount of TAFB if the company kept you longer you received like 150%.

Again, trip and duty rigs already solve this problem. It's contractually impossible for me to be paid less than 1/2 my hourly rate of $41.36 for any time I'm on duty.

I think what you're thinking of is the way things were before we even had a union. I don't know the specifics, but it seems like it was a mess. How's the new place treating you?

Duty time (FDP anyway) is already limited to 60 in 7.

Airlines are not exempt from minimum wage laws. If they require you to be on duty (at airport, in uniform, etc) then you must take home at least minimum wage times those hours. Times you are released (at the hotel, on reserve waiting for a call, 3 hour sits, etc) there is no wage law. Airlines are exempt from the overtime requirement of time and a half over 40 hours per week.

I oppose the idea of TAFB pay because somebody on reserve never getting called is entitled to ZERO wage, according to interpretation of minimum wage law. As much as this reality might be sad, the times where minimum wage does apply to this job, we all actually do make more than that. Per diem is considered an expense reimbursement, and does not factor into a "minimum wage" calculation.

My fear about establishing a comparable minimum wage in this job is that management and unions will use this as an index and never raise the bar above that. Real regional negotiations should center around what talent airlines want to recruit (age, lifestyle, etc) and base income off of that, plus average monthly cost every pilot pays for training.

Regional management figures they are the "graduate school" for pilots. So a first year guy makes minimum wage ($7.25 * 40hrs. * 4 weeks = $1,160 monthly) factor in "training costs" of say $500 and a pilot should take home $1,660 a month. At $23 an hour, a first year fo takes home more than that ($23 * 75 = $1725). Negotiations in this industry should center around being paid as a professional, not being paid as a minimum wage entry level employee.

*end rand*

..........

Why is so complicated for people to understand, if you accept the job you accept the wages. Nothing tells the employer they aren't paying enough like people not showing up. Pilots don't work very hard compared to other jobs. I much rather sit on reserve than work at mcdonalds. No one dreams of working a fryer. Hundreds of doe eyed young people dream of flying the friendly skies. They show up with expectations and then reality sets in and they begin to whine and moan about how hard it is to hack it as a regional airline pilot. If you can't make your salary work for you don't complain get a better job. They are around but they require some initiative.

None of this relieves me of the right to fight for better working conditions and compensation at a job I already have. I agree with your initial premise, but not the entire spirit of your message.

"Pilots don't work very hard compared to other jobs."

I dont know where you work bub, but I bust my b@!!$ everyday Im sitting in the front of an airplane ensuring a safe ride for the customers in the back. Not only do I work hard, Ive worked hard to get here. Don't even say we don't work hard. Look up the most stressful jobs in the U.S. Youll find that an airline pilot ranks in the top ten. This thread is an insult to pilots across the board. Minimum wage and professional pilot should never be mentioned in the same breath...although thats what the majority of regional pilots (F.O.'s) make.

Maybe you're trolling but if you are legitimately saying pilots dont work hard, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Only Hope
 

When I take time to analyze and assess why I have sat on my tickets for so many years without going for the regionals, it is only because of the pay. I just won't go for 23K for any reason.

If people could just see how working at these depressed wages for so many years harm our financial picture. I mean no mortgage being paid down, and no 401k savings.

I keep hearing people say that the regionals are a stepping stone. Maybe they are but that is no reason for the low pay. Come on!

I just hope you guys realize that you may never get a job at a major.

Duty Time
 

I can see getting paid for time spent on duty at airport adding up quite a bit. I would not oppose being paid for duty, but I also think it should be higher than minimum wage. The regionals would lower the flight pay to compensate anyway.

I really think now is the time to get our demands met. Something has to give here soon.

Paging all retards....... Retards listen up.

A 2:1 duty rig gives you 1 hour of pay for every 2 hours on duty. Much higher than min wage.

A 3.5-4:1 trip rig divide TAFB by 3.5 of 4. That = pay hours.

Solves a lot of problems. What most pilots don't get in this thread are that airlines would gladly OK this pay structure. And they'd take soft pay away to accomplish this, or just ding your hourly rate by 20% to give you min wage.

PILOTS ARE NOT MIN WAGE EMPLOYEES.

Same thing. Some morons are OK with working for a company with no cancellation pay. Others are OK working for a place that pays 50% of your pay to deadhead.

Wake up fellas. It is not that difficult. For a group of guys who claim to be "smart" many seem to be struggling with a basic concept here.

I don't want anyone's head to explode so maybe in another thread we can cover 401k matching.

Goodnight.

If you think you work so hard I invite you to join a mason who works a twelve hour day for 30 minutes for lunch. Despite that you spend the day hydrating you only use the bathroom at lunch. Then talk to me about all the responsibility you have flying around a state of the art regional flying machine. My comment was directed at the regional jet pilots specifically since thats where my experience lies. I am not saying the job shouldn't be rewarded but you have to realize the message is says to management when people show up accepting 25 dollars a flight hour of pay with a 75 hour guarantee and 1.80 in per diem. The pay is low at the bottom end but myself and everyone else accepts this with the intent of moving out of the bottom rung and sometimes you get stuck there. This is the risk you accept, but overwhelmingly in the past regional pilots have told airline management they are okay with this risk reward dynamic. My advice to people who pursue flying as a career is can you make mid twenties pay per year work for a while. If you are in a position you can't, do something else. It is fortunate that over the next few years major airline hiring will get things moving again and 6-8 year fo's will upgrade and or get hired out of their position and this will become less of a talking point. Management is trying their hardest to avoid breaking the regional model. Increasing pay at the regional level makes the model break. If you stop showing up to low paying jobs it will speed this up and most likely you will see the regional jet jobs go back the major airlines where they always belonged. THIS IS MY OPINION. Please differ with it if you like but don't take it personally.

I do not flake issue with anything you have said with the exception of pilots do not work hard.

I have no issue with what anything you've said with the exception of the pilots don't work hard. You're confusing not working hard with not doing hard work.

Mason: hard work
Construction: hard work
Deck Hand: hard work
Ditch Digger: hard work
CEO: works hard
Pilot: works hard
Accountant: works hard
You get the point. As I have said in a previous thread I have done hard work and I have worked hard. I'd much rather work hard.

Oh, I fly a Brasillia. I am not sure that qualifies as a "state of the art regional flying machine"

Take care my brother.

Duty Rig
 

Then an increased duty rig might help. I think this thread was intended to get a discussion going concerning getting paid for duty time. Some responses are against a minimum wage, but the point is made that we need better pay for duty time.

I see your point on minimum wage though. An increase may be better.