|
Originally Posted by ZBowFlyz
(Post 1619815)
The single most over looked detail is simple and often overlooked- Where does the money to pay properly come from?
It comes from mother DAL and father UAL and the mistress AAL. We love to hate regional management and they deserve 99% of it however, they bid their routes based on a specific labor cost. If we exceed that then our companies go TU. Along with our jobs. That is basic business. This is the natural ebb and flow of capitalism. Once we understand the supply and demand curve we can see how the RJ operators are just the pool boys for their respective Legacies. At their mercy. Be smart enough to direct the "Pay hate" at it's source. Don't misunderstand me, I dislike management as much as the next guy and feel like we are grossly underpaid but I am also well aware that there is too much competition in our industry. A few have become too expensive and they will fall by the way side. This might help to find the balance in this industry. Look how long it took to shut down Comair. Size doesn't matter. If the company is too expensive it will cease to exist. The interesting thing is the 1500hr rule and 117. Today isn't as simple as it used to be due to these barriers to entry for new pilots. Predictions are pure speculation at this point but the companies that will survive the storm in my opinion, will be the Regionals without 50 seaters and a relatively junior (inexpensive) pilot group. The industry needs re fleeted and that is one step in mitigating the "shortage" The situation may force mainline to accelerate the rate at which they park uneconomical aircraft such as the 135/145s/200s etc. Hopefully, as we go through this "capitalistic valley" the legacy's will take back the flying (at a respectable pay rate for the pilots) or the remaining companies will bid more fat in their contracts. One way or another, it will get worse before it gets better. IMO |
Originally Posted by ZBowFlyz
(Post 1619815)
The single most over looked detail is simple and often overlooked- Where does the money to pay properly come from?
It comes from mother DAL and father UAL and the mistress AAL. We love to hate regional management and they deserve 99% of it however, they bid their routes based on a specific labor cost. If we exceed that then our companies go TU. Along with our jobs. That is basic business. This is the natural ebb and flow of capitalism. Once we understand the supply and demand curve we can see how the RJ operators are just the pool boys for their respective Legacies. At their mercy. Be smart enough to direct the "Pay hate" at it's source. Don't misunderstand me, I dislike management as much as the next guy and feel like we are grossly underpaid but I am also well aware that there is too much competition in our industry. A few have become too expensive and they will fall by the way side. This might help to find the balance in this industry. Look how long it took to shut down Comair. Size doesn't matter. If the company is too expensive it will cease to exist. The interesting thing is the 1500hr rule and 117. Today isn't as simple as it used to be due to these barriers to entry for new pilots. Predictions are pure speculation at this point but the companies that will survive the storm in my opinion, will be the Regionals without 50 seaters and a relatively junior (inexpensive) pilot group. The industry needs re fleeted and that is one step in mitigating the "shortage" The situation may force mainline to accelerate the rate at which they park uneconomical aircraft such as the 135/145s/200s etc. Hopefully, as we go through this "capitalistic valley" the legacy's will take back the flying (at a respectable pay rate for the pilots) or the remaining companies will bid more fat in their contracts. One way or another, it will get worse before it gets better. IMO |
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
(Post 1619379)
I don’t believe it, if they made more to scale why unions would protect scope
10 year captain Delta Airbus 319 $200 Typical seat 134 = $1.49 per seat PLUS 16 % 10 year captain ASA captain CRJ 9 $84 Typical seat 88 = $.95 per seat Also what really happens is the local union divides up the pay amongst the group, I doubt SkyWest mgmt would object to taking 10% from senior captains and giving it to junior FO’S. Net some zero for them and free recruiting. Also to your point about the 50 seat jets, they are going away so that linier extrapolation is going away, the vote tanked because of what’s above. The overall payroll deduction, by needing less pilots due to larger planes, should be enough to justify bringing in new planes why should the pilot group buy them with concessions. No pilot at a regional is overpaid. They need to bring up pay across the board, no need for you to try and help management with the "divide and conquer" strategies they've already been using against us for years! |
Originally Posted by ZBowFlyz
(Post 1619815)
The single most over looked detail is simple and often overlooked- Where does the money to pay properly come from?
It comes from mother DAL and father UAL and the mistress AAL. We love to hate regional management and they deserve 99% of it however, they bid their routes based on a specific labor cost. If we exceed that then our companies go TU. Along with our jobs. That is basic business. This is the natural ebb and flow of capitalism. Once we understand the supply and demand curve we can see how the RJ operators are just the pool boys for their respective Legacies. At their mercy. Be smart enough to direct the "Pay hate" at it's source. Don't misunderstand me, I dislike management as much as the next guy and feel like we are grossly underpaid but I am also well aware that there is too much competition in our industry. A few have become too expensive and they will fall by the way side. This might help to find the balance in this industry. Look how long it took to shut down Comair. Size doesn't matter. If the company is too expensive it will cease to exist. The interesting thing is the 1500hr rule and 117. Today isn't as simple as it used to be due to these barriers to entry for new pilots. Predictions are pure speculation at this point but the companies that will survive the storm in my opinion, will be the Regionals without 50 seaters and a relatively junior (inexpensive) pilot group. The industry needs re fleeted and that is one step in mitigating the "shortage" The situation may force mainline to accelerate the rate at which they park uneconomical aircraft such as the 135/145s/200s etc. Hopefully, as we go through this "capitalistic valley" the legacy's will take back the flying (at a respectable pay rate for the pilots) or the remaining companies will bid more fat in their contracts. One way or another, it will get worse before it gets better. IMO UAL, DAL, and AAL can't afford to lose all their feed because they've managed to put the screws to us to the point where no one wants to work for their regionals(doing half their domestic flights). At some point they will have to stop making ever greater profits on our backs, and up amount they pay for contract lift. Allowing more than a handful of small regionals to go "TU" as you put it, would start to hurt them in the pocket book, more than the alternative. |
Originally Posted by Monkeyfly
(Post 1619885)
So then, where did Skywest get the extra money to buy other airlines if they were paying the pilots the most they could afford?
Yup, 4 other airlines to be exact! Three of which were money losing investments... |
Originally Posted by Monkeyfly
(Post 1619885)
So then, where did Skywest get the extra money to buy other airlines if they were paying the pilots the most they could afford?
|
Originally Posted by Paid2fly
(Post 1619922)
Yup, 4 other airlines to be exact! Three of which were money losing investments...
|
Originally Posted by ZBowFlyz
(Post 1619815)
The single most over looked detail is simple and often overlooked- Where does the money to pay properly come from?
It comes from mother DAL and father UAL and the mistress AAL. We love to hate regional management and they deserve 99% of it however, they bid their routes based on a specific labor cost. If we exceed that then our companies go TU. Along with our jobs. That is basic business. This is the natural ebb and flow of capitalism. Once we understand the supply and demand curve we can see how the RJ operators are just the pool boys for their respective Legacies. At their mercy. Be smart enough to direct the "Pay hate" at it's source. Don't misunderstand me, I dislike management as much as the next guy and feel like we are grossly underpaid but I am also well aware that there is too much competition in our industry. A few have become too expensive and they will fall by the way side. This might help to find the balance in this industry. Look how long it took to shut down Comair. Size doesn't matter. If the company is too expensive it will cease to exist. The interesting thing is the 1500hr rule and 117. Today isn't as simple as it used to be due to these barriers to entry for new pilots. Predictions are pure speculation at this point but the companies that will survive the storm in my opinion, will be the Regionals without 50 seaters and a relatively junior (inexpensive) pilot group. The industry needs re fleeted and that is one step in mitigating the "shortage" The situation may force mainline to accelerate the rate at which they park uneconomical aircraft such as the 135/145s/200s etc. Hopefully, as we go through this "capitalistic valley" the legacy's will take back the flying (at a respectable pay rate for the pilots) or the remaining companies will bid more fat in their contracts. One way or another, it will get worse before it gets better. IMO |
You guys are talking about profit like it's a bad thing? You should be rejoicing that there are record profits. Without them our pay raise would be completely off the table.
|
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
(Post 1619192)
I personally think the starting FO rate should be $40 and FO's should top out at $60. Captains should start at $100 per hour and top around $150.
It's still not ideal, but I just don't see the regional flying being completely absorbed back into mainline. This would at least provide a much better financial package for what is left of the regional world after the impending shakedown. I'd be willing to bet 70% or more would vote in favor of these rates and additional QOL enhancements. |
Originally Posted by ZBowFlyz
(Post 1619994)
You guys are talking about profit like it's a bad thing? You should be rejoicing that there are record profits. Without them our pay raise would be completely off the table.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...Highlights.pdf |
Originally Posted by ex9driver
(Post 1619984)
I agree with many of your points. I do believe the paradigm of regionals is changing however. The cheapest will not get the flying contracts because they won't have the staffing. There has to be a balance where the two or three big regionals still surviving can attract pilots and still be able to bid for flying. There will still be a few small regional airlines, but consolidation is coming soon. Remember, having a junior, cheap, pilot group constantly losing pilots to mainline has high training costs and has to attract the available newbies all at the same time. I also believe when the CEO of a regional has an indoor tennis and basketball court and 5 year FOs make less than a full-time Taco Bell cashier, something is out of whack! God Bless!
|
Originally Posted by Paid2fly
(Post 1619922)
Yup, 4 other airlines to be exact! Three of which were money losing investments...
What’s the value of owning the competition? Ahem, option B could be: OO sells EV, they go to bankruptcy and come out with a contract worse the 9E and under bid OO on their current or future flying. Why would OO want to compete with recent bankrupted airlines that have an advantage in bidding for work? There biggest regret is probably not waiting for Pinnacle to bust and scooping them up for a deal. Also SkyWest can deduct the losses of EV from OO gains and pay less corporate Income taxes while simultaneously building the company’s contracts, removing smaller less profitable planes, and sell it for a profit. That’s called Capital gains tax much cheaper than income tax. Plenty of companies own stores or sites that “lose” money because it’s cheaper the letting the competition set up shop. |
Originally Posted by Paid2fly
(Post 1619914)
No pilot at a regional is overpaid. They need to bring up pay across the board, no need for you to try and help management with the "divide and conquer" strategies they've already been using against us for years!
|
Originally Posted by pete2800
(Post 1619381)
This is incorrect. It would be correct if regional airlines still only served small communities.
There are even short flights between major cities that should go to mainline. SEA-GEG, PHX-ABQ... Sure, a Q400 usually goes between Seattle and Spokane, but Alaska has a 737 do it three times a day. If Southwest can do PHX-ABQ in a Boeing, so can everyone else. Also, how is Horizon being affected by the "regional" pilot drain? |
Originally Posted by pete2800
(Post 1619381)
This is incorrect. It would be correct if regional airlines still only served small communities.
In other words, all small towns are served by regional airlines, but not all regional airline service is between small towns. How many RJ-700's and -900's do 2.5 hour or greater flights? I work for a turboprop operator who does happen to do mostly short flights, but the "regional" nature of RJ's has long since been outgrown. ORD-ABQ is served by SKW on a 700. What "region" is that? North America? Those are the two largest cities in their respective states. RAH does this one in an E175. Buy a ticket on Delta for ATL-YYZ? RJ-700. EWR-OKC on an E145... ORD-MIA on a 700. PIT-DEN.... E145. IAD-IAH.... E145. ATL-EWR.... E145. YYZ-IAH.... E145. These are all major cities, and these are all long flights. If the regionals can't stay on top of their staffing, the Legacy carriers have two options: - Cut capacity across the board, not just between small towns. - Add mainline flights in order to maintain capacity. Not grow, just maintain. There are even short flights between major cities that should go to mainline. SEA-GEG, PHX-ABQ... Sure, a Q400 usually goes between Seattle and Spokane, but Alaska has a 737 do it three times a day. If Southwest can do PHX-ABQ in a Boeing, so can everyone else. |
Originally Posted by alaskadrifter
(Post 1620469)
My eyes were opened to this when I was on a flight from ASE-IAH. It was over two hours in a CRJ700. There is no reason majors can't bring flying back into the fold if AS is doing these kinds of legs. One 737/A320 can replace two "big RJs."
Also, how is Horizon being affected by the "regional" pilot drain? Horizon has had it's ups and downs with their pilot staffing. Our attrition has steadily increased, and the current rate is about 3 pilots per week. There have been times when they've had to cancel flights due to staffing. Premium pay has gone from 150% to 200% when they're really struggling, and it seems like it's here to stay at that level. There are open trips paid at 200% pretty much any time you want them. We've been hiring consistently since last summer, and that's going to continue. They've been hiring an interesting mix of people, which I think has caused them some problems with retention. For example, quite a few military people have gotten on here recently. I spoke with one who was hired here, finished IOE, and then left 2 weeks later for US Air. He was a C-17 guy. You can hire all of the well-qualified people you want, but that doesn't mean they'll stay. Since last summer the upgrade time has gone from 13 years to 10.
Originally Posted by El10
(Post 1620489)
You completely missed the point. What you have pointed out is the type of flying that will stick around. Just look at the flights that Delta cut from MEM and UAL is dropping from CLE. Even today Silver announced it is cutting back its EAS cities it serves from ATL. This is all capacity that is being cut and not replaced.
|
to digress further, spoke with a long time friend whose daughter just started an entry level job with a BS for 57K with unbelievable bennies.
Folks, people think the compensation here is comparable to an after school job bagging groceries. Well, you're not going to get the bucks until you demand it. Not only that, but those that are leaving you in the dust in terms of compensation will one day drive prices even higher in the market place for housing, automobiles and every other venue. Their ability to pay will escalate prices so that you remain in relative poverty. |
Originally Posted by Spoiler
(Post 1620522)
to digress further, spoke with a long time friend whose daughter just started an entry level job with a BS for 57K with unbelievable bennies.
Folks, people think the compensation here is comparable to an after school job bagging groceries. Well, you're not going to get the bucks until you demand it. Not only that, but those that are leaving you in the dust in terms of compensation will one day drive prices even higher in the market place for housing, automobiles and every other venue. Their ability to pay will escalate prices so that you remain in relative poverty. |
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
(Post 1619389)
O boy, can I play
msy-ord, I wonder what the longest route is served by an “RJ”? I think there’s a xna-lax of course I am sure that’s really just “Air-mart”. Whoa kind of scary thought. I think that’s what they’re doing already though 2 for 1 200-7/900 and pick up the slack with mainline. Less overall pilots needed to help with the “shortage”, but more mainline blocks hours which is good. I don’t however think mainline will ever operate the “RJ’s”. |
Originally Posted by ZBowFlyz;1619815[B
]The single most over looked detail is simple and often overlooked- Where does the money to pay properly come from?
It comes from mother DAL and father UAL and the mistress AAL. We love to hate regional management and they deserve 99% of it however, they bid their routes based on a specific labor cost. If we exceed that then our companies go TU. Along with our jobs. That is basic business. [/B]This is the natural ebb and flow of capitalism. Once we understand the supply and demand curve we can see how the RJ operators are just the pool boys for their respective Legacies. At their mercy. Be smart enough to direct the "Pay hate" at it's source. Don't misunderstand me, I dislike management as much as the next guy and feel like we are grossly underpaid but I am also well aware that there is too much competition in our industry. A few have become too expensive and they will fall by the way side. This might help to find the balance in this industry. Look how long it took to shut down Comair. Size doesn't matter. If the company is too expensive it will cease to exist. The interesting thing is the 1500hr rule and 117. Today isn't as simple as it used to be due to these barriers to entry for new pilots. Predictions are pure speculation at this point but the companies that will survive the storm in my opinion, will be the Regionals without 50 seaters and a relatively junior (inexpensive) pilot group. The industry needs re fleeted and that is one step in mitigating the "shortage" The situation may force mainline to accelerate the rate at which they park uneconomical aircraft such as the 135/145s/200s etc. Hopefully, as we go through this "capitalistic valley" the legacy's will take back the flying (at a respectable pay rate for the pilots) or the remaining companies will bid more fat in their contracts. One way or another, it will get worse before it gets better. IMO |
Originally Posted by NVUS
(Post 1619942)
Money losing investments up front, money making investments down the road
No, actually Air Mekong lost money the entire time(that Skywest owned it) and was sold at a loss. The carrier in Brazil lost money the entire time(they owned it), it was also sold at a loss, and they claim that they are and have been losing money on the original Expressjet side of the house. |
Originally Posted by Avroman
(Post 1620535)
Jazz does IAH-YYC, Mesaba (R.I.P.) did DTW-SLC on CRJ-900's Nothing like 4+ hours in one of these torture devices, at least it's not on a 200.
They also pay quite a bit more than US regionals. From what i hear, you can actually make a living on their payrates. (oddly, they seem to have disappeared from APC, though, so i can't cite numbers) |
Originally Posted by Paid2fly
(Post 1620553)
No, actually Air Mekong lost money the entire time(that Skywest owned it) and was sold at a loss. The carrier in Brazil lost money the entire time(they owned it), it was also sold at a loss, and they claim that they are and have been losing money on the original Expressjet side of the house.
|
Originally Posted by TBucket
(Post 1620606)
They also pay quite a bit more than US regionals. From what i hear, you can actually make a living on their payrates. (oddly, they seem to have disappeared from APC, though, so i can't cite numbers)
That's because we're talking Canadian Dollars vs. US Dollars. $23/hr in the US is $25/hr in Canada. |
Originally Posted by Avroman
(Post 1620543)
This is why ALPA is a complete FAILURE! A real union would have prevented this with HARD FLOORS. No contract would be allowed below a minimum pay, benefits, and work rules. There would be no option to undercut based on pilot costs. Instead we have ALPA sign off on the turd (albeit in bankruptcy) at Endeavor that should have been flushed into the Hudson. Then even more egregiously, they promoted that absolutely inexcusable dumpster fire at PSA (*** were you all thinking?). ALPA should have been shown the door at every regional the next day for that BS... At least now maybe there is a beginning hint at a clue.. Then again I'm betting we will hear ALPA start supporting the multi crew license or Ab Initio, or even push for easier loans for new trainees.
|
Originally Posted by NVUS
(Post 1620644)
That's because we're talking Canadian Dollars vs. US Dollars. $23/hr in the US is $25/hr in Canada.
I think it starts around 40 and tops at around 60. The captain rates are pretty comparable to captains here. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1620711)
Their rates even in US dollars are far and away above regionals here.
I think it starts around 40 and tops at around 60. The captain rates are pretty comparable to captains here. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1620711)
Their rates even in US dollars are far and away above regionals here.
I think it starts around 40 and tops at around 60. The captain rates are pretty comparable to captains here. Yeah, even someplace like porter flying the Q you make ~40kCAD first year as an FO. |
Originally Posted by XJT Pilot
(Post 1620651)
This is 100% ALPA's doing and in the name of good pay for the pond jumpers. News flash their what 10% of ALPA's membership. Furthermore, 90% of you guys reading this will never see the left seat of a wide body. ALPA is not a union, its an association. Unions have one seniority list and a pool to take from. Until we achieve one list you guys can bloviate all you want about what were worth, were never gonna get it as long as management knows they can close down and start us over. PERIOD!
|
Originally Posted by GlobeTreker
(Post 1620852)
Somebody get's it. As soon as we make any gains, management will just pull a Compass out of their azzes. We need an actual union.
So a change is to maybe get a union that really serves the regionals. Ok.. Is that possible? :confused: |
Originally Posted by GlobeTreker
(Post 1620852)
Somebody get's it. As soon as we make any gains, management will just pull a Compass out of their azzes. We need an actual union.
Pilots are professionals but we are still laborers. The only way we can secure descent pay and benefits is through collective bargaining. We have to be able to have a voice at the table in order to be heard. Maybe we should try asking our politicians where they stand on collective bargaining and organized labor, rather than the other issues that are nothing but side shows when it comes to our careers. Let's only support politicians who support labor regardless of their party affiliation. |
Originally Posted by freighthound
(Post 1621315)
After you get a Union you then need to stop supporting the politicians whose number one goal is the destruction of labor and all Unions. Pilots keep voting for people who spend their days and nights coming up with new laws and policies with the express intent of destroying organized labor so their buddies at the Country Club can run all over their employees in order to maximize their take. Those same pilots then wonder why they end up with crappy pay, work rules and loss most meaningful grievances and lawsuits. DUH!
Pilots are professionals but we are still laborers. The only way we can secure descent pay and benefits is through collective bargaining. We have to be able to have a voice at the table in order to be heard. Maybe we should try asking our politicians where they stand on collective bargaining and organized labor, rather than the other issues that are nothing but side shows when it comes to our careers. Let's only support politicians who support labor regardless of their party affiliation. |
Originally Posted by DryMotorBoatin
(Post 1621321)
What does it matter who is in office when th union itself encourages concessions at eagle, pinnacle, psa, xjet, and rah?
|
I just love how Moak seamlessly went from sending the eagle pilots a letter about how they should take a 10 year concessionary contract to "it's all about the money" and how we need to raise the bar in the regional industry to combat the pilot shortage.
|
Originally Posted by RgrMurdock
(Post 1621343)
I just love how Moak seamlessly went from sending the eagle pilots a letter about how they should take a 10 year concessionary contract to "it's all about the money" and how we need to raise the bar in the regional industry to combat the pilot shortage.
|
Someone mentioned that you really don't have a union, but an organization. That is probably a very true statement. ALPA is a conflict of interest, they collect your dues to serve major airlines.
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:32 PM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands