I am new to this forum. I have read some opinions that are pretty much way out in left field, and some right on the head. Having said this, hotmomma can you post a pic of yourself? I can forgive you if you really are hot! If you are not hot, then life is going to be a long difficult journey.

is there such a thing as a 'smart mistake'?

Being convinced is not the same as being correct and with each comment you make only makes it more scary...

Expectation of perfection is simplistic and unrealistic. It is also not borne out by any statistical studies of performance be it an airline pilot or any other task. I think I read that on average, there are 5-7 significant errors on each flight. Granted, most errors are caught OR most happen without consequence.

But no one is paid to make errors and personally, the one butt on the airplane I am most concerned about is MINE. IF I get my fanny up and down with some degree of comfort, efficiency and safety, those on/in the same airplane will also.

And really, does one *really* think 'hell, I just got 10 people on board so I can do what I want..." and the next day, "Oh, jez.. I got 100 people on board so I gotta fly extra safe..."? No one has a sliding scale of skill and proficiency and safety based on the number of people on board.

Anybody by chance know how much rest that CMR crew was on when they operated that early AM?

Both pilots had legal and adequate crew rest. It was not a 'stand-up' as some carriers call it.. (late night departure without 3-4 hours rest and then 1 leg out..)

Lot of other hufacts issues combining for a fatal error but crew rest does not seem to be one of them.

Then why does a 737 CA make more than a CRJ700 CA that flies the same route??

Perfection is expected and demanded. That is part of being a professional pilot. Any performance by myself that is less than perfect is a failure on my part and I strive to be better. Same with any professional career - athletes, manufacturing, lawyers. You don't buy a coffee pot, discover it doesn't work and think "well, the guy making this may have had a bad day so it's OK that this doesn't work and I'll go buy another" rather than try to get your $60 back.

Totally agree.

737 CA makes more because it was negotiated and the party negotiating had enough strength to play that card. And now the deck has been reshuffled and the other player has a better hand.. thus lower pay for 737 drivers and in many cases, loss of pensions... simple case of having the power to play the hand. Witness Johnny O's ability to fill classes even though I have never heard one single line pilot say anything good about him.

Second, as a check airman, I didn't expect perfection and in fact, on a check ride, I preferred to see a few errors and watch how the crew worked together. No errors and I didn't know if it was the one time these guys were the aces of the bases.. but if they erred and recovered (monitor, challenge, respond, etc.. all the CRM and stick and rudder stuff) then I knew it was a good crew.

And I guess we have to define perfection. Is it a flight that departs on time and arrives on time and no altitude deviations? Or is it something more realistic? Did the Capt have to ask the F/O what the taxi instructions were after maneuvering out of the ramp? No confusion over what ATC said?

Granted, one strives for perfection and the goal is always to improve... but perfection? I don't think so. And the gulf between expectation and reality may be one of the prime causes for a lot of modern heartburn.

Your coffee pot.. it is a machine and two things we know from HuFacts is 1) things break and 2) people make mistakes. That doesn't excuse mistakes but it does put us in a frame of defense against errors.

James Reason developed a matrix to assign culpability that moves from the left where the individual is NOT responsible to the right where it changes from an error to a willful deviation.

IF *I* provide *you* with the wrong tools, the wrong checklist, the wrong procedures and *you* fail, who is at fault? Who is culpable?

Example.. years ago, we taught stall recoveries but limited thrust to 'max takeoff thrust' so as not to 'overboost the engines.' That mixes a lot of stuff.. you don't overboost a jet engine. You can go above 'normal limits' but an overboost is a mostly a recip term. And unless you consider stalls a normal event, normal limits do not apply. Unfortunately the procedure was taught and well learned by the Air Florida crew and when they were stalling, they NEVER pushed the throttles up. The learned and did the procedure they were taught. What I am surprised at is some operators still teach takeoff thrust as maximum allowed on a stall recovery. DUMB...

Perfection.. in typing this, I have made a few mistakes and had to go back and re-type it. I caught the error. To use the jargon, I mitigated the error.

One final.. in countless forums, you see a repeated mistake where guys are talking about "losers" and invariably type "loosers". So, what mistake is being made? Typing, education, spelling skills, erudition, poor reading skills? What? Or do we just chalk it up to them being 'loosers'? :rolleyes:

And they say chivalry is dead...

Were you trying to make a point?

Chivalry..N. he sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

Nothing in the definition precludes self preservation. You might check the definition of a word before using it.. or you can just keep firing from the hip.

Anyone who says they are not concerned about their own fanny is a liar or does not belong in a cockpit.

So, there you are in enroute from ATL.. and your MAIN concern is getting that little old grandmother in 29C to LGA even though there is snow and ice, braking action reported fair to poor on 04 and the ATIS is talking about Low Level Windshear and nobody is missing... but you're not concerned about self...not the slightest pucker factor as you watch the airspeed dance around on final... just thinking about Granny. How altruistic...

(I'll save you the time...unselfishly concerned for or devoted to the welfare of others)

I would say spare us the drama but in fact, you and your posts are actually quite amusing and revealing. Keep it up.

[QUOTE=III Corps;96059]Were you trying to make a point?

Chivalry..N. he sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

Nothing in the definition precludes self preservation. You might check the definition of a word before using it.. or you can just keep firing from the hip.

Anyone who says they are not concerned about their own fanny is a liar or does not belong in a cockpit.

QUOTE]

Need I say more....

[quote=HotMamaPilot;96063]Yes, because we want to know what you have to say!

[QUOTE=bobloblaw;96078]I knew that persistence would win me a fan club. :D

You could answer the question.. what is your major concern when flying... altruism, as you implied, or self preservation and safety?

getting the revenue from point a to point b. I really don't know any captains who sit there and worry about crashing like you do. You fly the plane and if summin happens, well that's what checklists are for. who are you anyway?

I find this statement to be written by the pilots laywer. Unfortunately it did not take off, he took off along with the other crew member. Again if this were a Mesa a crew you people would of been all up in the face of Mesa about how the training sucks and how the 250 hour wonders ruin this industry. Not to turn this into a Mesa is great column they are not but I thought it was an interesting note that I had made originally and no one had anything crafty to say about it.

It was tragic and horrible and an accident. Some posted about how everyone gets named in a suit and they are right. You can't get anything from an empty wallet. Best he can do is protect his assets and let the big companys fight it out. When I heard he survived I had to think pretty hard about whether I would of wanted too.

the fact that it was pilot error isn't being debated I think... it's the tone towards this unfortunate accident, and the attempt to pin it on RJ pilots that is not fiar. Delta took off with no flaps on a 727 back in the early 80s I believe.. does that make Delta pilots inferior? Hardly..

Your comment about "perfection" is good, as whether it is achieved or not is based on the standards.

For me, "perfection" items I strive for are pushing from Marshall on time, planning and flying enroute descents to maximize the efficiency of the airplane and having an un-noticeable landing at the point I aim for, along with flying the flight to applicable standards. A pilot flies to standards. A professional pilot exceeds standards.

That said, even the loosest definition would include getting your passengers from point A to point B alive. They failed to do that. They should be held accountable, as that is an unacceptable error. Whether they were given bum tools or not, countless other aircraft accomplished that assignment from that airport and didn't lose a life.

Whether they did/did not use CRM, checklists, other tools/techniques that are in place to reduce errors or were set up to fail by management or the FAA, their error killed their passengers. They are not paid to make errors, and they are paid to make the decision not to go if the risk to success becomes too high. If the airfield was so jacked up they couldn't find the right runway, they should have not taxied until it was fixed.

Since you edited the spelling in your post, that is a control measure used to achieve "perfection". If, on re-reading, you realized your post was junk, you would not have submitted it. That is a risk control.

Pilot pay: comment about the 73 pay noted...then why the difference between 50 - 70 - 90 seat RJ's??

Didn't the FO train with GIA?

-LAFF

Has a CVR transcript been compiled and released yet?

I don't confuse marketing and image with the responsibility I have. (save my fanny and those flying with me while striving for safety, comfort, economy and convenience).I don't worry about crashing. I do risk analysis however rather than blunder around hoping things work out and that if they don't.. well, then I have the checklist.

Also, you might want to read about a few accidents where there were NO checklists to deal with the problem. United 232 comes to mind. The AirTransat A330 (flt 236) with its fuel leak. In the latter case, the checklist lead the crew to compound the problem, not solve it. Sometimes you have to *think* and know stuff rather than just pull out the QRH.

As for who I am, does it make any difference? You want some pecking order qualifier like hours, types, experience? Okay, lots, numerous and many. Suffice?

Pushing and arriving on time has little to do with perfection. There are too many variables OUTSIDE your professional control .. de-icing, late bags, ATC delays, holding, wx. I only try to control those things I can actually control.

The loosest definition of perfection is getting them there? As noted, most errors we capture or there are other barriers in place that tell us an error has been made (GWPS, ATC, policy/procedure, checklist, CRM, etc). But that does not preclude us from making errors. And by any definition, an error (the outcome is not the planned outcome), means that one has not achieved perfection.

Yes, these guys erred and they paid dearly, one dieing and the other losing a leg and probably living the rest of his life replaying the events up to the point of impact over and over and over again in his mind. I know a few guys who have been in crashes and they didn't just walk away and forget it. It is a constant weight they carry.

Risk analysis. We agree. HMP doesn't. (do not pronounce the abbreviation as HUMP, please!). She is an altruist with a checklist. And yes, no one is paid to make errors and no one intentionally errs. That is what is called a "violation", a willful deviation from expected norms.

As for pay, it again has nothing to do with anything except what is *negotiated*. Granted, in distant times of old, pay was tied to number of factors including speed, weight, day, night, international, duty time, butts on board (727 paid more than a DC-9 and the -8 paid more than either and the Seven Four paid a lot more than any of them) but in recent years, we have seen that paradigm destroyed. In fact, the guys taking home the most GREEN don't have a single butt in the cabin.. they are hauling boxes.

In the good years, I saw my compensation almost double. In the bad years I saw it more than halved. Some years we got the bear... lately the bear has been eatin' our lunch and handing us our collective *sses. It happens.

Yeah, I wasn't actually getting into the whole RJ pilots are inferior debate. I was just kind of making a general statement. Everyone seems shocked that because this fella is injured that the legal system would lay off, then someone makes the statement that the jet took off from the wrong runway. Jets don't take off, pilots do.

I agree with you there is way to much BS between pilot groups here. A little too much all for one all for me.

my.02

Are you kidding? :eek:

Like that has something to do with it. That statement could be viewed as slander. Cause Lord knows, thats the way they do it down in S. Florida. LAfrequentflyer's post will start a whole new worthless thread.

Not at all. I remember reading that he trained there just wanted to see if that was verified or not. You can't trust the media. Anyone know?

i never said that rj pilots are inferior

In some countries he would be in prison. A lawyer will defend him pro bono for the publicity on Court TV. Even if the court hands down an award to the families I doubt he will ever have to pay a penny. Look at O.J.... He hasn't paid a cent. Yes, it sucks he may be heading to court but it could be worse.