Decisions, Decisions!
 

As a new entrant to this forum and industry, I extend my warmest greetings to all! Very excited to be here. Now to my current point.

Apparently, this is a pretty unprecedented time for those of us that are taking the first step into the 121 arena. If you meet the requirements, you are likely to have offers from an overwhelming number of companies, leaving you faced with "the choice".

Please confirm or correct; research shows that there is no such thing as the "best" regional. One must choose either 1)decent pay and/or QOL and a longer upgrade, or 2)less decent pay and/or QOL and a -possibly- shorter upgrade. Doesn't seem that one can have it all, rather must choose the balance that works best for the individual.

It seems that starting and subsequent pay rates in a given seat are pretty much guaranteed, at least until things change. This is in contrast to what one is told regarding upgrade times: how can anyone say for certain when an upgrade will occur, especially when the reasons given always seem based on what is "projected" to happen, such as the acquisition of new contracts and/or more planes which in some cases have yet to be finalized, delivered and/or built? How often do recruiters simply make it sound like an upgrade is only 12-24 months away just to sway people to join their team? For example, if one were to go to a regional having been told to expect a 2 yr upgrade and 4 years later they are still waiting, how unfortunate would they be, having been stuck with unconscionable pay for longer than planned, versus going to a regional where the upgrade is admittedly longer, but the pay while waiting consistently outperforms lower offerings by a rough average of $6000 more per year?

A huge gamble, but from what I gather that's what the regional level is yes? Personally, I prefer the relative guarantee of better pay while waiting over the more stressful hope for a quick upgrade. Guarantee vs. hope. Play it safe and know what your check is going to look like, or roll the dice and possibly hit big. Only thing, this is not Vegas, and if you crap out, it affects your life quite significantly, to the tune of missing a rough average of $12,000 over 3 years. Younger people may be able to try different regionals a time or two and be okay, older people are more likely to want to get it right the first time.

For example, the difference in second year FO pay between a lower paying regional and a higher paying regional is roughly $9000. (I am purposely not calling company names in an attempt to avoid offending anyone, even though what I am stating are published numbers and not personal musings. Research will show which companies and numbers were used for this example.)

Research shows that larger regionals, along with some of the smaller ones, are working towards better treatment, but apparently that has been tried before and didn't turn out too well (Comair?). However, it seems that there is now more leverage due to the shortage of people that meet the new requirements. Would it make more sense to go with one of the larger regionals, or may that leverage not be as strong as perceived? Is there security in numbers, or is that not applicable to this industry?

This forum seems to be one of the better gatherings of people that are close to the industry, and you already have my respect and likely that of many others. Specifically, I'm looking for those of you that are mature, knowledgeable, and experienced to share your thoughts. I think this conversation will help many newcomers like myself and serve as a great launchpad for research.

I'm trying to keep this first post from going too long, so if it seems that anything was missed or some thought processes omitted, please, respectfully, work them in. Please no flaming or trolling; I and I'm sure many others will get a lot more out of this conversation without all of that.

So please, if you will, share your thoughts. Thanks!

Tempered expectations. Regionals are currently operating under pre-existing contracts, where there really isn't much room to throw more money at the pilots. Sure, some regionals probably have a little more room than others. None of them are going to cut their nose off to spite their face right now. And if one does, those pilots may end up being paid well on their fast-track to the unemployment line. Pay is going to take time, time to negotiate new contracts with the majors or rework pre-existing ones.

One regional that is growing like crazy today is dying on the vine tomorrow. Some have grown to a size that any future growth seems minuscule. Some regionals have a strong track record, while others are considered less than favorable amongst the masses.

The point is, its highly unlikely that you will find one regional that encompasses everything you are looking for. You need to decide what is most important to you, because this is YOUR career, and go from there. Sounds like you've already done some great research, the best advice you can get from the community would be to choose the one that suits your interests and goals best.

Not sure where you are right now (CFI? Military?), but if you are hellbent on the regionals, stick with the "bigger" ones. IMO there will be a merger or three, and it's usually better to be the acquirer. Also check out flow programs - Enveagle is an example of one - they give at least some movement off the top. Ultimately mainline will take back most regional flying once they can no longer be staffed on their own - if you are lucky you could find yourself with a ML number with no interview required. I suppose patience and timing are the key - as always.

Forget pay rates for a second and imagine where you live, or where you want to live. Then do your research and figure out which regional where you can either a) live in base and drive to work, or b) have the least amount of commuting stress possible.

Living in base for a sucky job is a whole lot better than a bad commute to a great job.

Where am I?

This is the best thing to look at. The new duty regs will kill the days off you get and commuting will take the rest off them. If you can live in base or near base is the way to go!

Personal opinion, for the little it's worth, choose a job, or bid seat, equipment and base, with an eye toward being stuck there for awhile. I've been at this for 14 years professionally and have been furloughed and stagnated more than I care to think about.

If luck is with you, the upgrade will be quick and the legacies will be knocking on your door. But be prepared for the next upswing in oil, downturn in housing, plane flying into a building, or whatever the next nonsense is, that causes your career to stall out.

Anything a recruiter tells you is merely a snapshot in time, at that time, meant to make the picture look as good as possible.

Don't goto psa or gojetz

You'll thank yourself for,life.

Or Mesa.....

This really is what it's all about in my opinion. I leave my house one hour before report time. Even in traffic I will arrive with plenty of time to check in, grab a coffee, look at the weather, and relax for a few minutes.

I just finished an unusually brutal 4 day trip last night. I was on the verge of calling in fatigued even. Our last leg was battling a T-storm into DEN, and I was just done at the end. I got in my car, went home, and slept for 9.5 hours. I feel much better now, and am going to go mountain biking. If I had to deal with commuting home last night? Damn, I can't even imagine how defeated I would have felt.

Or republic

Decisions, Decisions!
 

When you are figuring up the pay rates for the airlines, do you go back to year 1 CA pay once you upgrade? Or if you've been somewhere for 5 years, would you start at year 5 CA pay?

Year five.

Ok, hire me at eagle and I will show up to class :)
Sorry, Envoy...
When will DFW be a 700 base?

Or Siver ... :)

I went to one of those and I was on reserve only 3 months, after two years I bid top 15% in base and could upgrade if I had the requirements. Most likely hold a line and never see reserve when I upgrade, boy I am glad I didn't listen to guys like you!

or TSA, OR Skywest, XJT or any other outfit.

The grass isn't much greener anywhere. Make them pay you handsomely for your services. Supply and demand 101.

U wot M8?

Not gonna lie, this is legit advice

I posted this in a different thread, but since you asked....

First, welcome to APC.

Second, your logic is valid. I shared your conclusions back in 2003 and went with Comair. 10 years... Never upgraded. You don't want to see the math on how that decision got me ahead of my peer group.

Third, I would agree with previous posters. The regional you don't have to commute for is the best regional... Period.

And if they don't have a s#it-ton of 50-seaters sitting around, better still.

Fourth, the difference between Vegas and the regionals is your odds are better in Vegas. (But that's improving)

Good luck!

Bingo. Upgrade time and growth/movement had better be an important consideration. I didn't even apply to comair in 2003 when I was shopping for regionals because I was concerned about getting stuck as an FO for a long time.

Spending 10 years as an FO at a "good" QOL regional < 1 year as FO at a somewhat jankier place and a couple years as captain before moving on to a career carrier.

What does this mean "U wot M8?"
English please! :)

No, Mesa, No Republic, No Silver, No XJT, No SKW, No Envoy, No Gojets, No TSA, No...No No No any regional! Where does one start then?

The only pitfall there is upgrades can be very hard to predict. Most "quick" upgrades affect those on property already. Guys trying to hop on for the upgrade run the risk of getting stuck as a FO at a garbage regional for an extended period of time.

This may not really apply anymore considering the regional model is going to change drastically in the next few years, but it's something to think about.

Compass? ;)

I guess Great Lakes hasn't been mentioned yet either...

In the last 5 years what majors have been hiring people who have only spent a couple of years at the regionals? That used to be true but it just isn't true anymore. Now that the majors are hiring it won't matter if someone hired in 2005 upgraded in a year, or was hired in 2005 and took until 2013 to upgrade. Both of those pilots are still stuck at the regionals and both of those pilots have the PIC time.

deleted...

Great Lakes, no I do not want to make the great mistake! :)
Compass? Would be great but I am not qualified for them.
I talked to the recruiters at a job fair, they pretty much said :"great education, but you have no prior 121 or 135 experience. Go get a few hundred hours on a King Air and come back". I thanked them and left almost embarassed for even trying to talk to them.

Compass told you that?

Yes, I am very serious. That is exactly what one of the recruiters said.
Looks like they don't want 1500 h guys, they want people with prior 121/135 to fly their shiney 175s for peanuts.
I don't even remember if I left my resume or taken it back with the embarrassment!

Many thanks for all the participation! There is a lot of good information coming out and I am learning a lot. Let's keep it up!

The most recurring themes involve commuting and upgrades. Shortest commute implies less stress and better rest. We all know (should know) the irrefutable importance of that. The upgrade subject remains a crap shoot. I have come to understand and believe that stated upgrade time is based on the current moment and could change one way or the other in a matter of months. Ref what pete2800 stated about the upgrade time at his company changing 3 years in 4 months, that's a significant change and I don't think he meant 3 years -less-. Ref also Bzzt stating that quick upgrade time applying mostly to those already on property; a very profound point. I wish it could be better projected as I do agree with 80KtsClamp about being at a lesser regional and becoming CA quicker vs a greater regional and remaining an FO longer. To me, CA pay anywhere would more than meet my current and near future needs and would be worth -nearly- any hardship (emphasis on nearly lol).

So far I've gotten offers from Mesa, TSA, AirWis, XJT, and RAH. I live in the southeast, so I'm leaning towards either XJT or TSA. XJT due to company size, decent pay and best commute, TSA due to upgrade time, decent commute, and relatively decent pay if the upgrade dosen't come as quick as stated. Mesa's upgrade sounds good too, but they seem to have a rocky reputation and their indecent pay speaks for itself. I held off on applying for Envoy, PSA and a few others so as to save some for later rather than rejecting possible interview invitations. I think it's possible that may not go over well if one decides to try back later. Any good info on these companies is more than welcome and will be very useful.

Do your math, It's tough to predict what will come. Just whatever you decide know that you don't have to justify yourself to anyone on here. Just " Do you !" There are a lot of great suggestions on here aside from the standard regional mudslinging.

I have heard this before; Mesa states that they will only be using prior 121/135 to fly their incoming 175s as well. Could that be what is driving their quick upgrade statements, the expectation that many of their current CRJ pilots will move over into the 175, opening up the CRJ seats? Anyone know why only 121/135 in the 175 may be? Is it like this with any other 175 operators?

Agreed sir! Thanks!

In my honest opinion, the mudslinging needs to stop. Since we -know- companies sometimes seek to sow discord among pilot groups, why facilitate their actions? Also, we should take time to actually think about the ideas and proposals of others rather than refusing to even hear them out. Listen and think first, then simply and respectfully accept or reject. All the flame battle BS is immature and unbecoming of anyone, especially professional pilots! We should be amongst the top tier of professionalism worldwide! People entrust their lives, not to the company, but to us on a daily basis; that is a HUGE responsibility. Has anybody forgotten that? Regardless of everything, that has -got- to remain in the forefront of our minds. Immature behavior has it's place which is in grades K-12.

A group benefits best when it works together.

Did anyone see this article?

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...airlines.html/

Very interesting and encouraging! Thoughts?

It is not that way...I was offered a spot and I am mil only flying.

It was described to me as, "experienced." And came in the form of "since you've got 9200 hours, prior 135, 91K, 121, and 3 type ratings I'm not going to ask you any technical questions. You've got a class in the 175 if you want it."

That's how the 175 went for me last week. I was offered the CRJ sooner if I wanted it though. Houston is a better option for me.

BUMP for the benefit of the new guys! Many are asking some of the same questions I did when I was "regional shopping" (ref the "Questions for Choosing a Regional..." thread for example). I got some good input from this old thread and maybe someone else will read something in here that will help them too.

I came to understand that the main thing is to first decide what is most important to you (pay, qol, upgrade, etc.). The choice will then be clear.

I hear the Mesa interview is very difficult...it involves checking for a pulse. Of course, I don't know how they do that when they are offering class dates over the phone.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Former Comair class of '03 also.

Everything Boomer lists is valid as well as the previous poster's list.

Good Luck.