saab2000

You spend a lot of time slamming RJ drivers as ignorant of reality, willing to work for peanuts, implying that we are the source of all evil in the airline world.

I got into this business about 11 years ago. I happened to live overseas and went through the testing and selection process of a pretty large European airline and was trained from near zero total time to airline pilot in a relatively short period of time. I bypassed a lot of the traditional steps which pilots have to take in the US.

Livin' large, flying around Europe in a large airplane with just a few hundred hours does wonders for the ego.

Fast forward to Sept. 11, 2001. Booooomm.. We all know what happened. I feel fortunate. All I lost was my job. A lot of others lost a lot more. Yes, the implications were far reaching and even in Europe I was laid off with about 600 other pilots, though not until late 2003 did the hammer actually fall.

I returned to the US after having lived overseas for a total of almost 15 years and got in line with all the other pilots. The majors weren't hiring and besides, because of the nature of my experience (ab initio, no freight, no instruction, no nothing but airline right seat time) I had near zero PIC time. That situation is still true. No major US airline will even glance at me with my thousands of hours of M/E turbine SIC time in 121 ops or JAA equivelant.

So what I am supposed to do? I sign up with a so-called "Regional" airline to fly RJs. I fly airplanes. Regional airlines in 2004 were all that were hiring. I am getting pretty close to the upgrade now and hope to finally start adding to that PIC column in my logbook. It is right now barely into the triple digits, nearly all of it Cessnas and Pipers flying around the Alps with hot chicks sitting next to me. Hey, a pilot's gotta have some fun, right?

The first real 'regional' jets came online about 10 or 12 years ago, in the form of the CRJ. If I recall correctly, the major airline pilots wanted nothing to do with them. They gave up the rights to fly them. They wanted nothing to do with them. Well, nowadays they are fighting to limit them. Why? Because the RJs and the growth of the regional airlines is a real threat to their livelihoods. Why?

BECAUSE THEY DID NOT TAKE THEM WHEN THEY HAD THE CHANCE!!!

How is this my fault or anyone else's fault if the pompous heavy drivers wanted nothing to do with them?

You called us dumb and ignorant in your posts. I take real offense at this. We have many pilots in my company who for a variety of reasons are in my company and not in your company. We are also losing pilots to companies which fly large airplanes. I feel quite proud of my accomplishments and am, to be honest, very smug about the fact that I was selected into a prestigious, large European airline where most are not accepted. But does this make me a better pilot? Or somehow give me the right to pick on others? Absolutely not.

Business is business. You and I have very little impact on business decisions. Do you really think I like living near the poverty level in Washington DC to fly 50-seat RJs?

Don't blame hard-working, low-paid RJ pilots for the failure of the other pilots to protect their flying. I am not trying to undercut anyone. I am trying to put food on my table. This is the job that was available to me. I am going to apply to Delta now because it represents an improvement in equipment, pay and career possibilities for me. I expect hundreds or even thousands of other RJ pilots to do the same. If I get the job I do not expect to come onto forums like this and act in a pompous manner towards those who may not have been as fortunate (read - in the right place at the right time....). Some of the comments towards you and your qualifications have been extremely offensive. I do not defend those who make comments like theirs. On the contrary, I am ashamed that we are associated with each other. But your taking out your issues and frustrations by riding all RJ pilots is equally frustrating for me to read.

The pilots at my company have very loudly and clearly said we will NOT give up a penny to fund the growth of the owners of the company. And we have paid a HUGE price for this, in terms of ZERO growth and lost opportunities and base closures, etc. Will you help me get into your company because I took a stand against lower pay in bigger airplanes? I bet you won't. I pay a price for this stubborness. Where is the support from you guys???? How about the Comair pilots who actually went on strike a few years ago to fight for better conditions? Think that doesn't help you guys too? It does. How about the Mesaba pilots who have also fought a hard and losing battle to save some dignity? Where is their pat on the back?

The race to the bottom is NOT, believe it or not, with the pilots. It is the management of the companies and the courts which allow contracts to be shredded. But this started when this flying was conceded. Conceded? Yup. Many a pilot group has, under huge pressure from their employer, CONCEDED larger and larger airplanes. Don't blame the kids who then go and fly those airplanes. Blame the ones who gave up that CONCESSION.

Your posts and attitude towards many who are RJ drivers and also complete professionals is condescending and patronizing. I am not flying an RJ by choice. I am flying an RJ out of necessity.

JoeyMeatballs

Even though you say you are "ashamed" of me I think this is a great post, and ALL OF THE MAJOR Airline guys should read it, then maybe they weill realize it was their ego's and greed that brought the industry to what it is

DMEarc

I would say tens of thousands...you're going to need HUGE times to get on with them.

CactusCrew

What about the ones that DID the 10 years at the commuters ? Are you telling me my greed and ego ruined the industry ?

Just curious, were you even IN the airline industry in 1990-99 ? ... Because it doesn't seem like you grasp the dynamics that led to the proliferation of RJs and "regional" airlines.

I could go on about SCOPE and RJs, but I'm cranky today ! ...

Suffice it to say, when majors were relaxing their SCOPE language to allow code share partners to fly these things, they were only 50 seats with a realistic comfortable range of 1-2 hours. Not quite like the generation of products being billed as "regional" jets today ...

Merry Christmas all !!

Later, CC

Sanchez

Well, that's fine and dandy, but don't forget that every major was given a chance to fly the regional jets by everyone. ALPA, the regional pilots, hell even the manufacturers, they all urged the majors to keep the "jet" flying in house. One by one they all turned it down, the pilots at the majors said that they were too small....1100 (in the US) RJ's later I think maybe they realize the mistake they made.

This is the only flying to go into now a days and is rare to get an operator that does not...colgan and Great Lakes with their terrific work rules (sarcasm), who else, oh yeah Gulfstream and Commutair, that's four out of 20, 21.

You decide.

rickair7777

What's done, is done. Management outsmarted our leadership on so many levels with the whole RJ thing. Distasteful to admit, but true. The first step to solving a problem is admitting that you have one.

Going forward...Scope, Scope, and more Scope.

It would also be a REALLY good idea to establish a single seniority list for each banner. This would have many benefits:

1) Eliminate the whipsaw.
2) Stabilize entry-level labor costs, minimizing artificial competetive advantages based on low-longevity labor groups.
3) Ensure a liveable wage for all airline pilots.
4) Increase the competetive level for entry into the profession. Higher-quality workers will not tolerate lower-quality compensation in the long run.

This makes perfect, obvious sense. Why has it not happened yet? Cuz the major pilot groups (with heavily military cultures) don't want their young military brethren to have to start in the right seat of a 1900 like the unwashed civilian masses...

But we are destroying our entire industry to ensure a comfortable military-civilian transition for a relatively small handful of people...is it worth the cost? Absolutely not, people.

Besides, if everybody were on one list even the 1900 FO would get 16 days off and make $45K+ to start.

CactusCrew

The pilots at the majors said that they were too small ...

If you say so, BUT .... as I recall they were not willing to sacrafice negotiating capital to keep the airframes on their list. That capital was spent on raises, retirement, and other improvements to contracts. But what could I know ? I was a lowly commuter dog at that time ...

And Rick's right, the leaders got flat out maneuvered ... period ... mostly history.

At least some of us are TRYING to correct that course deviation. USAir & AWA pilots WILL fly the E190s under OUR contract with OUR pilots. The payrates bite, we got them from JBlue ... go figure. But it was the best we could do with the negotiating capital we had at the time. I expect to see improvements in the near future ... FWIW

Just don't go around thinking that ALL major airline pilots IGNORED the RJs and wanted to have nothing to do with them. Nothing could be farther from the truth ...

Oh, and by the way ... add PDT to your list. But I hear the RJs are coming next year for them ... like they say every year (old joke) ...

Later, CC

Merry Christmas to all !!!

Quagmire

Shhhhhhhh. Be vewy vewy qwiet. I tink she weft.

Spanky189

Get off the military Rick. After 10 years of active duty flying, I'm sure I have more experience then some 2000 hour, Cessna/Beechcraft flying college grad. I had been to 100 countries and 45 states. So, yes, I do think I should be ahead of you in line when it comes to an airline job.

Hunt599

The average time of guys applying to the majors is anywhere from 4000 to 7000 hours.....with 5 to 10 years of AIRLINE experience....... maybe you should get off your military high horse.