Pilot shortage equals low pay?
 

As I sit here and contemplate my career I get to read articles like this.

ALPA News Release

Bro. Two words. Shiny...jets.

10 Lowest-Paying Airlines
Estimated First-Year Salary as of July 20, 2014

Great Lakes
$14,616
Skywest Airlines
$20,064
GoJet Airlines
$20,504
Expressjet Airlines
$20,745
Trans States Airlines
$21,531
Silver Airways
$18,693
Mesa Airlines
$20,183
Republic/Shuttle/Chautauqua
$20,655
Atlantic Southeast Airlines
$20,907
PSA Airlines
$21,600

Spot-on article in my opinion. There is a pay shortage for jobs in which worker can barely afford Ramen noodles, and if the pay were to be raised, the shortage would be solved very quickly. Somewhat shocked that it came from ALPA, though.

Alpa needs to shut the regional guys up a bit, there is a risk in regional pilots figuring out alpa doesn't represent their interests at all. Tossing you a bone. But teamsters no better.

Truth of the matter is this. FAR TOO MUCH TIME IS BEING WASTED DOING NOTHING. If nothing is done now, then never. Where is the leadership?

One of the union reps for Eagle (an outgoing rep, I believe, summed up in a statement that the major airlines have become addicted to low wage regionals. Addicts will lie right to your face, because their addiction is stronger than any other process including morality and logic. I think that analogy fits well here. We all know what is required to attract pilots, pay and better working conditions.

It is infuriating, that ALPA doesn't release these statements somewhere they will be read, like in a major publication. Just publish the first yr pay figures AND 4 yr figures, training costs, and quotes about pilot shortage. Then simply say "Any wonder there is a shortage". But MOAK gets 500k/ yr, so I guess there's no money for effective PR.

I agree with that statement. When major airline pilots trade scope, they get bigger salaries. I would argue should regionals be reabsorbed into the parent airlines, salaries at the top would have to come down.

I'm not sure major airline pilots even care if scope ever comes back, whether we are talking scope in number of airplanes or scope in size of airplanes.

I find it hard to believe that any pilot at a major or legacy gives a damn about Regional FO pay.

Anything written by ALPA is pure propaganda.

This is a very true statement. I think the captains only slightly care and that is because they have to sit up front with us.

The National minimum wage is $7.50

7.5 x 40= 300 per week
300 x 52 = 15,600
Looks like Great Lakes pays below minimum wage and the others are not too far above it

There will never be a shortage. Like ALPA or not, the article is correct. Plenty of guys/gals living abroad. The 1500hr rule only hurts pilots and makes them jump through more hurdles to get a job. Think the public really cares about how many hours the pilots have? Yeah right, sure doesn't stop them from flying abroad on carriers that hire wet tickets into a heavy.

There will never be a real shortage of mainline pilots, just low paying regional ones. But who cares about that? Actually the way the system is setup is perfect for the airlines. A bunch of low paying regional pilots want and deserve to go to mainline for higher wages/QOL. So there is a flood of apps there for a smaller number of jobs. Mainline isn't gonna give a crap about low regional pay because they still have plenty of apps to choose from. Hence, no shortage... ever.

At the risk of sounding insensitive , I assure you I'm not, just one point.

A corporation only exists on paper and is a non-living non-breathing entity that is designed expressly, in theory, to make money. To assign a human emotion to an inanimate object, even when it's staffed by humans, will usually result in frustration.

That point aside, when entry level pilots stop accepting jobs at subpar wages the resulting labor demand will respond in a predictable way. Of course it never happens fast enough.

Gentlemen,

A few points to ponder

1. The president of ALPA (and I assume IBT) must sign each contract, which means that they not only endorse, but condone, low regional pay.

2. How many of us--myself included--have left or lost well-paying jobs, only to recycle at the bottom of an RJ seniority list somewhere? This only perpetuates the notion that we will not just tolerate, but run, to these jobs.

3. How many of us have made an investment in this career, knowing that there was going to be a) low pay for a number of years, and b) a risk of little or very slow career progression?

4. How many of us are willing to look in the mirror and say that we are a part of the problem, for continuing to accept the low wages. Nobody is twisting our arms.

5. What ALPA is not acknowledging are two important points. First, the cost of learning to fly have skyrocketed. I finished all of my ratings between 1991 and 1994 for less than $16,000, and paid cash as I went. Second, there is indeed a pilot shortage, but not just on the professional side. There is shortage of people learning to fly just to learn to fly, and many of those--myself included--only later decided to go full bore for a career.

I admit that I have been lucky, as I hit the front end of the regional wave in the mid-90's, and I got hired a year ago at a legacy. But the truth is, we have all contributed to this issue.

And the truth is, there really is a pilot shortage, but it's across the board, not just in the professional ranks.

Just food for thought...

ALPA is to blame but it's the local union that is the problem. High pay for senior CAs who then throw the F/Os table scraps. The regional pay is modeled after the mainline carriers where one spends the majority of the time at >5 year pay, vs a regional where most is spent under that.

Moak was asked that very question in front of Congress yet he didn't have an answer for them, because there is no rhyme or reason except "greed".

Even the CA vs. F/O disparity bugs me at mainline but it's palatable due to the F/O pay being in the triple digits.

This occurs for a handful of reasons.

First, the regional pilot group is unable to decide for themselves if regional airlines should even exist. I'm not saying they have to take action on a decision, but no collective voice has come out and said on behalf of pilots 'yes the B scale should exist' or 'no regionals need to be reabsorbed into their parent airlines, end the B scale'. There is no leadership in the regional airlines as it pertains to pilot issues. Regional pilots just flutter in the breeze, subject to the whim of the powers that be.

So lets say that pilots collectively do decide that regional airlines (B scale) should exist. Question number two is this- Should a pilot expect that he or she can make a career a the regional airline?

If the answer is yes, then Captains continue to make more at the expense of FO’s, but all FO’s have a shot at making a B scale career at the regional. You don’t want ALPA under this situation, you need an organization which truly represents your interests as a regional (B scale) pilot.

If the answer is no, then FO pay and Captain pay should be the same, flattened. Only longevity should pay higher. You are forced to move up to a major or out. Hopefully there is a flow through program and the better airlines will have this. You want ALPA representing your interests. If you have to start over at a new regional, at least you can make a livable wage.



In summary, the following points.

• Question #2 can never, ever be answered without first knowing the answer to question #1.
• FO pay could change tomorrow if your local union leadership says ok (not debating the merits of doing it, just that it could happen)
• I like Lee Moak, but he conveniently sweeps some stuff under the table such as the ability to move money around on the pay scales
• Having high FO pay is good for the pilot group as a whole. Imagine if you could decide to leave your airline right now, move across the country, and restart again at a new carrier for a starting livable wage. Would $40K be enough to start year 1?

That list of FO salaries in Moak's fact sheet looks pretty accurate to me. You mean that was just propaganda? How so? Those are not the real FO salaries? What do you mean it's just propaganda that FOs make that much and the alleged pilot shortage has something to do with that? If you want to bash ALPA be my guest, but please use facts.

Agree, but at some point word will get out that the path through regionals to majors is not assured the way students and new recruits historically thought it was. In the meantime wages remain terrible at regionals and most flying careers end there. It is crazy to contemplate how long the present pilot labor market has been exploited on the basis of a remote hope of making it big, but it has and things should change. I think it is likely things will change.

When new pilots vote with their feet by not accepting historically low wages and choose another profession in lieu of flying altogther, a sea change of thinking will occur in the airline industry and salaries will be raised at regionals accordingly. Ticket prices will go up and the shortage will be solved when it occurs. But since there is no real pilot shortage yet at the majors or the regionals, it will not happen soon.

I think most people agree with you on every point. I sure do... except that there is a pilot shortage. If there is more than one app sitting on a recruiters desk at a mainline carrier for each vacancy, then "yes" there would is a shortage. But with thousands of apps sitting waiting there is no shortage.

A shortage at the regional level doesn't mean crap. That's like saying there is a shortage of fast-food workers. That is not a liveable wage and neither is working at a regional as an FO.

Pilot shortage equals low pay?
 

Right now Moak is blowing smoke up everyone's posterior.
This is an election year and he is out to get the vote at the regional level. Do you think he cares about the regionals? It's still the same old whipsaw game. He signed off on PSA's unnecessary concessionary agreement.
I'm not sure if they're having problems hiring or everyone is banging on the doors to go there to fly those shiny new jets. I've said this before, but at the regional level, CAs can make a livable wage and FOs can't. There's no reason an FO should have to work a second job on their days off.
If I was trying to get into this today, I doubt I'd be able to do it

That is an excellent point and one that is overlooked. He is every bit as guilty at perpetuating this non-sense. Where was the leadership from Alpa national?

I think what you're saying is pilots(regional) fold like a cheap suit. Yes I agree. We are our own worst enemy. I think the reason why we are our own worst enemy is there's no unity. It's hard to have a sense of unity when your fellow regional pilots are your competitors for that major airline job. ALPA needs to create better opportunities to unite everyone, financially and career wise. Major airline pilots need to help as well, it starts by valuing regional crew, were not some pond scum that shuttles you from your base to your ranch after you've flown your 767(yes we see you hiding back there) We are all in this together.

Here's a few questions.
1)How do you get the comapnies to increase FO pay? Especially first year pay.
2)Do you expect the new pilots to sit on the sidelines waiting for the increase?
3)Will senior CA's make concessions and give away a little from the top to balance out the bottom?
4)how do you stop this "Race to the bottom"?

My opinion is this; In all professions there is a starting point.
A mason, electrician, plumber and a carpenter started their profession as a "gopher" or day laborer to learn their trade.
Many corporate execs and individuals in business had to do an unpaid internship.
A good restaurant GM has worked his way up from even a dishwasher position.
I believe that this is just a "right of passage" as a first year FO. Would I like more money? Hell yes! Do I think it's fair to sign a 1 year or longer training contract at those wages? Hell NO! For now I'll just grind it out and wait my turn for the upgrade.

First, a regional isn't a "starting point." It's typically the 3rd step for most people. Your analogy would be more appropriate if you looked at flight instructing or aerial survey as washing dishes and waiting tables. A first officer at an airline is an assistant manager of his airplane full of 70-80 people. The next step is manager.

If you want to believe first year pay is a "right of passage," you need to wake up to the realities of this industry. There are literally thousands of pilots who've had to do first year pay twice or even three times. When Comair folded, there were former 20 year CRJ-900 Captains flying the same aircraft, literally, for "intern" wages.

What if you never upgrade? What if you wake up one day and your company has started to downsize. It's 10 years later and you're still making less than 40k a year. It is easier to accept low wages when the future of high wages look so close and promising. Point being, there may be people reading this right now who will never see the left seat and your idea of intern wages hurts them most.

These aren't comparable jobs to an airline pilot. Look at engineer, doctor, lawyer, accountant, architect, etc.

As a student, yes. Many colleges arrange for unpaid internships for their students. Airline pilots are not students any more.

Not a comparable job. You can do this job with little or no education.

Disagree, comparable jobs pay around $50,000 to start. The internship ends at the 1500 hour mark at the latest. Even that figure is a bit high in my view, but Congress put it there because flying turbine aircraft with 50+ people through the sky is a safety-critical job, and the system was allegedly failing to ensure safety- so 1500 it is. A comparable figure to similar professions will have new FOs at $50k to start. They'll pay it when they can't find so many applicants willing to do it for $15-25k.

You make really good points. I never thought about the pilots who were already established in a career with a regional only to be furloughed or even let go due to company closing.
Flight instructing, aerial mapping, jumper dumper, or any other part 91 flying is time building. After these 91 jobs not all go to a Regional. There are many good paying 135 jobs out there cargo and corporate.

You never answered the questions. You only responded in general.

If you have to start over at a new job because the old one goes out of business or you move, do you have to complete the right of passage again?

This is a common misconception. While we are indeed in competition for a job at a major, the issue here is that we--via ALPA and IBT--have allowed ourselves to become not just competitors, but "re-competitors"--for the regional feed, that is, the 'race to the bottom.'

You missed my point: there is indeed a shortage of decent paying jobs, but there is not a shortage of pilots willing to take the low paying jobs...yet. But, more importantly, the number of private certificates being issued does not equal or exceed the number of people that have stopped flying. In that sense, yes, there is indeed a pilot shortage. The airlines--and ALPA, much to its chagrin--need a thriving GA market to survive. They haven't figure out that they are losing that.

Tom, with all due respect, in my opinion this is crossing the blurry line between the merits of pay vs. the way the seniority system works. We can change the pay, but the seniority system is never going away. As for how to get companies to change it, the answer that is actually simple: brand scope. The first airline that embraces this concept as their feed carriers cancel flights for a lack of crews will suddenly be flush with pilots to hire. The EtD deal is the first to really try that since this shortage has hit, but it misses the mark of a true flow like XJT-CAL had.

When that becomes the norm, the problem goes away.

I'm pretty sure, but not 100%, but pretty sure...that a dishwasher didn't spend mid five figures to learn the delicate art of detergents, water quality, and the interaction of such agents on ceramics along with sponges and other stain removing implements. Pretty sure...but not 100%.

Regional pilots fold like a cheap suit?

You mean fold as give concessions?

Hmm..if you do, I can only think of one regional within the last year that is giving concessions. Egl, rah, and others have all said no, aka not folded like said suit.

Addiction
 

I'd say that it is an addiction, like crack cocaine.

Airline pay is a joke. Why would anyone want to fly for garbage wages and no quality of life.

Yes a good start.

Because they have no choice, or the will to start over. But word is out, the piloting profession is becoming distant as a top paying job vs others that require this much time and investment.

FYI Lee Moak is not running again for President.