Exactly. If I remember correctly, Air France wouldn't have ended up in the Atlantic off Brazil if the FO had a basic comprehension of pitch/power/airspeed.

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Do you see any gray, or do you only see black and white? Why do you think the new rest rules came about? It was primarily due to fatigue and their studies of it. It has been compared to being intoxicated. Just as one shouldn't drive while under the influence, one shouldn't operate an airplane when severely fatigued. Have you ever done an altitude chamber and saw first hand the effects of hypoxia and how that affects decision making?

The "tail stall" theory is absolute and utter BS and anyone with the slightest aviation clue knows it. I'd be astounded if either of those two had the remotest idea as to what a tall stall is, much less what to do about it.

She had a gut reaction because something bad happened after she lowered the flaps, so she instinctively raised them to "fix" the problem. No way would she have completed the necessary logical leaps to diagnose a tail stall without discussing it with the CA or at least verbalizing what she was doing.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...9ed4496d72.jpg


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As others have said, 1500 is no big deal, two years as a CFI and you'll have some fun too.

You better believe its a big deal when you need 500 HOURS CROSS COUNTRY. You aren't going to have a mere 1500 hours with 500 hours cross country as a cfi. You could easily end up with 3 or 4 thousand hours while you are losing seniority at mesa and psa by 50 pilots a month. Have fun with that.

I am sensitive to the tail stall argument, having flown through a few winters in a Twin Otter. However this accident started with the stick shaker, not the pusher.

Most of us, I trust, will release back pressure in reaction to a buffet or stick shaker. I am certain that all of us who have towed banners will do so (to use the RAA's favorite example of "wasted time"), likewise for any of a dozen other ways that new pilots build time and basic airmanship skills.

IIRC, for an atp, cross country only requires you to fly to a fix, not land. Otherwise a military pilot who takes off from xyz, flies a ten hour mission, and lands at xyz would not be able to count that flight towards the atp. A smart instructor can plan many lessons to fly to a fix 50 miles away without negatively impacting the student. It may not be 500 hours, but should be enough to meet 135 mins, get a 135 job, and get the remaining xc. But all that requires one to know the regs, work the system, and bust his tail.

Well, 135 xcountry is point to point as well. I'd always take students to a airport that was 10NM away from my departure airport. Worked well in my favor.

I'm a military guy who flies commercial all the time, and I have over 1500 hours.

I like the 1500hr rule. Is it arbitrary? Absolutely. The difference between the 1400hr pilot and the 1500hr pilot isn't significant, but the difference between the 250hr pilot and the 1500hr pilot is. The point between 250 and 1500 that the lightbulb moment happens is different for every pilot, but there is a moment. There are lightbulb moments after 1500 hours, too.

The reason why I like the rule is that piloting skill is a quickly perishable skill, and it's dependent on a lot of factors that on any given day can make you half as good as you usually are. If the captain is half as good as he usually is... maybe he didn't get any sleep, his schedule is off, he's got serious personal problems that are distracting him, or he's sick... the FO is the next line of defense against possible disaster. I like knowing that he's at least as experienced as the captain who's not quite performing up to par and not some guy who just happened to meet the mins.

I did the same thing.

I tend to agree with you.

It needs to be known that that she did was eerily similar to crew room banter in regard to tail stalls that I had heard at Pinnacle the winter prior to the CJC accident.

He did not hold the yoke back! He got the shaker and added about 15% power. He got the pusher and he fought the pusher 3 separate times. He also never increased the power over 60%..... The Q400 would have very easily powered out of the stall had he just went to max power, but we all know how it ended.

Holy political debate on APC Batman!!!!

You guys just got to learn to chill out. First off I never said I hated the 1,500 hr. rule, just wanted clarification. Secondly, I never went to ATP nor plan on going for that matter. Thirdly, I don't have 200K in student debt. I have no idea how some of you came to that conclusion.

For those that don't like this thread, guess what? You actually don't have to post anything and it will go to the bottom of the forum. By posting you create more traffic and therefore more views on this thread keeping it on the 1st page of the forum longer. So...congratulations, you shot yourself on the foot on that one. I really thought there would be more professionalism on forum sites like this...

For those that actually answered the question sincerely, I thank you! I appreciate your feedback.

Good point I think it needs to also be explained that the biggest mistake before the stall and what some will say poor airmanship was the pilots lack of understanding how the Ice speed switch work. For the q400 when the airplane was in icing conditions the crew was required to put a switch on that increased the speed that one would get the stall indication. When one had this switch on they were also required to increase the vref speeds by 20 knots also. The crew had the wrongs speeds set. The crew was on profile flying the aircraft like they should be but because the switch was on got the stall indication at a higher speed so he was not ready and his lack of readies is what led to the unfortunate incident. What is not really mentioned is that this very same situation happen the very next day after the crash where the crew forgot that the speed switch was on and bug the wrongs speeds and got the stick shaker but lucky a check airman was on board in the jump seat. The 1500 hour rule just like far 117 would not have prevented the crash. You still have pilots commuting across the country for work, you still have people sleeping in crew rooms what has change nothing. The only airline that has do e anything to make sure their pilots are well rested before a trip is commute air who gives people hotels the night before a trip.

That just explains your level of knowledge. I hope you never get a tail stall. There is a good chance you have never heard of one.

Well now you know why when people talk about one seniority list you know why that'll never happen. Pilots can't even have a discussion about the 1500hr rule without tearing each other apart, lol.

Regardless whether someone supports or hates the 1500hr rule it has not raised pay. That in the end is all that matters. Pilots can care about experience and all that, but the public really doesn't. If they did they would be willing to pay alot more for tickets to increase your pay.

It sure doesn't help that the TSA goes around groping people making the flying experience fun <sarcasm>. Security groping, grumpy FA's and Airlines nickel and diming passengers to death make for a customer base that has no desire to help fuel your desire to make a liveable wage as a pilot.

You do realize the new rules allow for a restricted atp with 200 hours cross country, right? Reaching 200 with 1500 tt as an instructor shouldn't be a problem.

The purpose of the 1500 hour rule was to kill Gulfstream and the "0 time to Airline pilot in 12 months" puppy mills.

No, oh wise experienced one, please explain it to me then explain how a misdiagnosis is a legit excuse for a crash….

That wasn't the purpose, although it may be a consequence. GL and GIA may be done, but I doubt the puppy mills are going anywhere, they'll still be able to suck enough people in. They'll offer CFI jobs to their grads (at least one hour/month guaranteed!) and zero-to-ATP time building programs for the well-heeled. The good news is that while starry-eyed wannabe skygods would instantly sign up for the $180K loan needed to go direct from zero to regional FO, no lender in his right mind would go for that, so the latter option will be available only if daddy can cover down.

That's why you will see MPL here before too long.

Gulfstream may be gone, but that didn't hurt/help the industry at all. The 1500 hr rule is a joke. The only thing that matters is PAY. Getting paid in sunsets doesn't mean anything.

If anything the zero to hero mills now have a supply of CFI's now that people need to build hours. So in that essence, the flightschools benefited because they now have people working for them who would have fled to an RJ job after getting their wet COMMs a couple years ago.

PURPOSE OF 1500HR RULE = make public feel good with no benefit to pilots.

I think MPL would be a viable option for US regionals. I think universities like Riddle should develop a MPL program to be used in conjunction with a EtD type program. They could call it Riddle to Delta, or RtD. The candidate would get a 4 yr. degree and a ERJ-170 type rating. They would have to go through a real Delta interview before being accepted into the program and upon graduation, they would go fly at a partnered regional for a few years for some seasoning and then go directly to Delta with no further screening required.

This would alleviate the regional pilot shortage while giving the majors a steady supply of pre-screened candidates with the proper type of experience.

Now, before you write and tell me how expensive the above would be, and it would be expensive, they could institute a means test for funding. Meaning that if the candidate and/or the candidate's parents have enough money themselves, then they would have to self-fund 100% of the program, sliding down a scale to 100% funded by the government and/or the airline themselves.

They would have easily powered out of it at 100% if she hadn't raised the flaps, uncommanded. Fatigue.

While raising the flaps didn't help, If he stopped pulling back on the yoke when the shaker and then pusher came on they would have recovered.

That is private/commercial pilot 101 there, at the buffet lower AOA, everything else is secondary. You can add all the power you want, but if you don't reduce AOA you will still stall.

I know it feels good to attack the poor decisions of dead pilots, while trying to make yourself seem smart, but are you familiar with the power to weight ratio of a Q400? He could have accelerated out of it easily. also, as previously discussed, he didn't hold the yoke to his chest the whole time, he was fighting the pusher (a common mistake). And I'm not the one saying it, experts are. google is ur friend.

Roughly the same as a Yokosuka D4Y, and only a little better than other WWII dive bombers. Accelerated stalls were all too common in them.

Even with the flaps retracting they coulda powered out of it had he gone full power.

This thread is going full retard.

Get away with what exactly?

With allowing a pilot who lied about check ride failures into the left seat of an airliner?

Ugh, deleted....

Thanks for your responses earlier in the thread to what I'd written. Always appreciate and respect your input.

As for daddy covering down, I went through training with a lot of guys who told me their dad is a Captain for United or Southwest or whoever. It got old quick. Many (not all) had a serious sense of entitlement to the profession and acted like the left seat of a widebody was their birthright. All the while their training, housing, new car, and comfortable lifestyle were being subsidized by Captain Daddy. I also trained foreign students who were selected under the guise of a skills test allegedly open to the public, yet every single one of them seemed to have a father working as a pilot or in management at this airline. It raises an eyebrow.

I'd love to get away from this Ivy League legacy club member mentality and towards a merit based philosophy in all things training/hiring. Obviously if someone (or their daddy) has the money to get their private pilot's license after 100+ hours, that's their right. But without that demographic, the 1500 rule might not even exist. I think we'd also have a sharper, hungrier pilot group.

Easy Capt Undrepants, the only surgery you will be doing is on a Que Bueno burrito.

Yup!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

No, I don't, because I'm not 45 still posting in a regional forum.

Ooooh snap!

You must be an entitled 20 something year old thinking all the 45 year olds are in your seat.....

As the creator of this thread, I declare it over. (bangs a gavel) Thats what she said. Good work people, lets do this again sometime!

Thats what she said!! I am on fire tonight!

as the creator of the thread you are nothing more than the creator of the thread. you CANT declare it over. only a moderator can do that.

No, I don't, because I'm not 45 still posting in a regional forum.

there are ppl older than that posting on this forum. and for the record i would say you are pretty dedicated to this profession to get 1500 hours flight time to get into an rj than a 198 hour riddle puke who cant dry the ink on his ticket. then again riddle grads have had better luck through training because there are no bad habits to break? who knows.

Thats what she said!! I am on fire tonight!

are you 45? :D