Which regional has the best contract?
12-26-2014, 11:55 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 806
Originally Posted by Nevets
All very good questions!
Scope is referencing the boundaries of your contract, how far does it reach. In other words, to what aircraft/flying does it apply to. All mainline contracts have scope that does NOT encompass aircraft with less than 76 seats and other provisions such as hub to hub flying, length of trips, rations between RJs to narrowbodies, codesharing, joint ventures, etc. For regional contracts, it mostly applies to language such as alter egos, subsidiaries, wet leasing, etc.
MEC stands for Master Executive Council. This is the governing body of the pilots union at the respective airline. Other pilot unions my refer to it as BOD or Executive board.
Rigs are a ratio of hours to pay. A duty rig is a ratio of how pay hours for a given amount of duty hours. A trip rig is a ratio of pay hours for a given amount hours away from base (show time to duty out). For example, if you have a duty rig of 2:1, your pay will be at least one hour for every hour you are on duty. If your trip rig is 4:1, your pay will be at least one hour for every hour you are away from base.
Junior assigned is when a trip is added to the schedule of most junior pilot available.
Sick leave accrual is different depending on pilot contracts. Generally you accrue a given amount of hours for each month you complete.
PBS is preferential Bidding System. It is a software programed used to bid for trips in each month.
Pilots bid differently depending on each contract or airline policy. Not all pilot groups bid with PBS, for example.
As for your last question, you are talking about what we refer to as soft time. The amount of hours paid that are not actually hours flown. This is the key indication to the strength of a contract. Yet its very hard to discern. That's because its almost impossible to compare the key metric, average total compensation (not just what shows up on the W2) divided by actual block hours flown. Every contract is different and have different provisions. So its something you learn with time as you become familiar with your contract.
Scope is referencing the boundaries of your contract, how far does it reach. In other words, to what aircraft/flying does it apply to. All mainline contracts have scope that does NOT encompass aircraft with less than 76 seats and other provisions such as hub to hub flying, length of trips, rations between RJs to narrowbodies, codesharing, joint ventures, etc. For regional contracts, it mostly applies to language such as alter egos, subsidiaries, wet leasing, etc.
MEC stands for Master Executive Council. This is the governing body of the pilots union at the respective airline. Other pilot unions my refer to it as BOD or Executive board.
Rigs are a ratio of hours to pay. A duty rig is a ratio of how pay hours for a given amount of duty hours. A trip rig is a ratio of pay hours for a given amount hours away from base (show time to duty out). For example, if you have a duty rig of 2:1, your pay will be at least one hour for every hour you are on duty. If your trip rig is 4:1, your pay will be at least one hour for every hour you are away from base.
Junior assigned is when a trip is added to the schedule of most junior pilot available.
Sick leave accrual is different depending on pilot contracts. Generally you accrue a given amount of hours for each month you complete.
PBS is preferential Bidding System. It is a software programed used to bid for trips in each month.
Pilots bid differently depending on each contract or airline policy. Not all pilot groups bid with PBS, for example.
As for your last question, you are talking about what we refer to as soft time. The amount of hours paid that are not actually hours flown. This is the key indication to the strength of a contract. Yet its very hard to discern. That's because its almost impossible to compare the key metric, average total compensation (not just what shows up on the W2) divided by actual block hours flown. Every contract is different and have different provisions. So its something you learn with time as you become familiar with your contract.
PDT had recruiters on the day I took my ATP written at American Flyers in Santa Monica, CA and they were saying how first year pay actually ends up being around $40k for their first officers after all is said and done, which is almost double of what it would be based on the guarantee/hourly pay....
I'm just trying to figure out how most people survive the first year on $1600/month.
12-26-2014, 12:01 PM
#12
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by Da40Pilot
Thank you, so here's my next question....based on a first officer holding a line on first year pay of say, $25/hour, what is the ACTUAL average take home pay with all the stuff added on top? Per diems, junior manned trips, overtime etc...?
PDT had recruiters on the day I took my ATP written at American Flyers in Santa Monica, CA and they were saying how first year pay actually ends up being around $40k for their first officers after all is said and done, which is almost double of what it would be based on the guarantee/hourly pay....
I'm just trying to figure out how most people survive the first year on $1600/month.
PDT had recruiters on the day I took my ATP written at American Flyers in Santa Monica, CA and they were saying how first year pay actually ends up being around $40k for their first officers after all is said and done, which is almost double of what it would be based on the guarantee/hourly pay....
I'm just trying to figure out how most people survive the first year on $1600/month.
All recruiters have a job. Their interests may not be aligned with yours. They can give you a half truth. But if it doesn't pan out, you will not be able to go to them and force them to make up the difference in pay of what they sold you versus reality.
Next time, ask the recruiter to put it in writing on company letterhead and the CEO's signature next to yours. They will not be able to come close to that demand. Remember, they are 3,000 miles away recruiting you. They need you more than you need them!
12-26-2014, 12:16 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,450
An Airline that has a good contract is one that pays much in the soft money area. Make sure you are getting a min. Day or good duty rigs, make sure you get CX pay. Make sure you have a good vacation bidding. Make sure you have some good insurance (individual or Family) at a good cost.
When I came through the ranks I knew that Piedmont all around package. Since I wanted to stay on the east coast that was my choice.
There are some good regionals to chose from (AWAC) I hear is also good, however the one to probably stay away from now is Republic. There contract and insurance cost are probably the worst in the regional industry.
Some companies may be great in one area and not in another. What you want to make sure of is that you are getting paid for you time.
When I came through the ranks I knew that Piedmont all around package. Since I wanted to stay on the east coast that was my choice.
There are some good regionals to chose from (AWAC) I hear is also good, however the one to probably stay away from now is Republic. There contract and insurance cost are probably the worst in the regional industry.
Some companies may be great in one area and not in another. What you want to make sure of is that you are getting paid for you time.
12-26-2014, 12:44 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by Pilottim79
Nevets thinks anyone not named XJT or AWAC is below average.
He really doesn't grasp the concept of average. Then again he is just really butt hurt TSA is growing.
He really doesn't grasp the concept of average. Then again he is just really butt hurt TSA is growing.
Originally Posted by billyho
An Airline that has a good contract is one that pays much in the soft money area. Make sure you are getting a min. Day or good duty rigs, make sure you get CX pay. Make sure you have a good vacation bidding. Make sure you have some good insurance (individual or Family) at a good cost.
When I came through the ranks I knew that Piedmont all around package. Since I wanted to stay on the east coast that was my choice.
There are some good regionals to chose from (AWAC) I hear is also good, however the one to probably stay away from now is Republic. There contract and insurance cost are probably the worst in the regional industry.
Some companies may be great in one area and not in another. What you want to make sure of is that you are getting paid for you time.
When I came through the ranks I knew that Piedmont all around package. Since I wanted to stay on the east coast that was my choice.
There are some good regionals to chose from (AWAC) I hear is also good, however the one to probably stay away from now is Republic. There contract and insurance cost are probably the worst in the regional industry.
Some companies may be great in one area and not in another. What you want to make sure of is that you are getting paid for you time.
12-26-2014, 12:48 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 504
Originally Posted by Nevets
And Horizon. I don't think many people understand average. If the top 3 numbers are 100, then next 10 numbers are 85 and the last 5 numbers are 75, then the average is around 85. AWAC, XJT, and Horizon are in the top 3, TSA is in the middle 10, and others are in the lower 5. What you seem to be talking about is the median, which I think TSA would fare worse, by the way.
I stand by my statement. You have no concept of the word average.
12-26-2014, 12:54 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by Pilottim79
No, you continue to compare TSA to companies with bigger airplanes yet conveniently omit companies with smaller airplanes.
I stand by my statement. You have no concept of the word average.
I stand by my statement. You have no concept of the word average.
Go back an read my math example, mathematically its entirely possible to have 18 regionals with only the top three being above average and the others below average.
12-26-2014, 01:01 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 239
AWAC and Horizon are top two and XJT is a close 2nd. After that.....pick your poison. The sad thing is AWAC contract is a concessionary contract from 10 yrs ago or however long and its still way better than these new contracts that AA wholly owns just passed.
12-26-2014, 01:07 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: DHC-8 100/300
Posts: 843
Originally Posted by Da40Pilot
Thank you, so here's my next question....based on a first officer holding a line on first year pay of say, $25/hour, what is the ACTUAL average take home pay with all the stuff added on top? Per diems, junior manned trips, overtime etc...?
PDT had recruiters on the day I took my ATP written at American Flyers in Santa Monica, CA and they were saying how first year pay actually ends up being around $40k for their first officers after all is said and done, which is almost double of what it would be based on the guarantee/hourly pay....
I'm just trying to figure out how most people survive the first year on $1600/month.
PDT had recruiters on the day I took my ATP written at American Flyers in Santa Monica, CA and they were saying how first year pay actually ends up being around $40k for their first officers after all is said and done, which is almost double of what it would be based on the guarantee/hourly pay....
I'm just trying to figure out how most people survive the first year on $1600/month.
12-26-2014, 01:08 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 806
Isn't flow through a big consideration? What's the point of having an amazing contract if you're going to be stuck as an FO for 8 years versus 2 years (thence getting a significant pay increase.)
Between Envoy and PSA, they both have bottom of the barrell contracts then?
Isn't the whole point to get in, get out and get on with a major asap? If XJT most junior got upgraded in 2007, why would anyone wanna stick around for almost 10 years with an FO payscale no matter how good the contract is?
Between Envoy and PSA, they both have bottom of the barrell contracts then?
Isn't the whole point to get in, get out and get on with a major asap? If XJT most junior got upgraded in 2007, why would anyone wanna stick around for almost 10 years with an FO payscale no matter how good the contract is?
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