The Movement Thread for ASA
 

What follows are some reflections of a 7 year FO at Atlantic Southeast Airlines:


I want to start a discussion for First Officers at ASA who like me came to ASA as their first airline with the intention of getting their feet wet in the 121 world, building the PIC Turbine time and moving on. (YES, I KNOW NOT EVERY FO HERE CAME FOR PIC TURBINE, BUT I DID.) The numbers from the last 3 months have been eye opening for me as I reflect on my tenure at this company and consider the future of ASA and options for FO's like me who are hoping for left seat time.

Since I've come to ASA:

Pilot group has shrunk by 300+ numbers from 1800ish to 1500ish and continues to trend in that direction.

The JCBA with XJT is forever away

No net growth of aircraft has occurred
- ATR's disappeared
- CR2s were swapped in for CR7s at a "2 for 1" deal
- Numerous CR9s came on property, and I can't remember the details on how we got those. Help?
- IAD and DFW were not growth. IAD and DFW CR2s came from the shrinking DL operation
- Some IAD aircraft have gone to the desert, never to return. N827AS just went to Victorville, CA on Wednesday this week.
- Too many CRJ's to count from DL operation I flew at ASA are now flying as Skywest Aircraft.


This is not a recipe for growth & movement.

I feel as though the past 7 years I've been living in a state of constant denial. I bought into the company language that ASA was an "industry leading regional" that "respects their pilots." We do have some of the highest pay rates, best working conditions, and a contract I'm happy to work under. I figured in these conditions the growth & movement opportunities would come. But I was naive. I spent over 3 years on reserve and fell back on reserve after 5 years. And now 7 years down the road sit comfortably in the middle of the pack but still hundreds away from upgrade. SHAME ON ME FOR STAYING SO LONG! Today, the company is seeing attrition rates not seen since 2006/7. Surely the gates will open now for FO's to get the valuable PIC time? So, when management released the 15-01 Position Notice it was like "alright, this time it'll be the charm! Gates have opened, lets see this movement!!" They announced 4 vacancies for upgrades and I died inside.

I've considered the reasons why the upgrade #s are so meager. My primary guess is it's because new hire numbers aren't keeping up with the attrition. Or maybe management is still using attrition to absorb the 140 IAD pilots back into the DL/AA operation. But since the IAD shrinkage began in October 2014, we've lost more than 140 pilots from our ranks. Ideas?

Knowing what I know now, I would NOT apply to ASA today unless they this company was experiencing healthy movement. With the # of lifers at this company combined with the fleet shrinkage it's no surprise left seat is 200+ away for me. Sure some new hires are coming here to get some 121 SIC time for a different job, or their primary concern is base or then maybe they're just happy to make a career as an FO cashing in 45-50k a year while running a small business. But ASA continues to miss capturing the largest pilot demographic: Green pilots looking to start their 121 career. Oh yah, I'm sorry, you won't attract RJ-typed pilots with a $7,500 bonus so they give up their job at TSA&PSA/Envoy/Endevor to come to ASA. Those airlines are either seeing growing/crazymovement, have a flow, or are offering hefty bonuses ($80k).

If I could tell Alex one thing it would be: Movement.

If I could tell a new hire FO or pilots considering ASA one thing it would be: As of March 2015, don't come here if your intention is to see the left seat. You've got 600+ ahead of you waiting for an upgrade when only 4 have been offered the upgrade in the first quarter of 2015. 596 to go…

I'm looking forward to reading the positive AND negative replies. I want to absorb as much information and points of view about this issue before making a decision to jump ship! Weeeee!

The Movement Thread for ASA
 

Should of went to a quick movement regional. My buddy left Xjt after 7 years as FO. He is now a CA within 8 months of being hired at PSA.

Look into TSA or mesa. I hear mesa is getting more planes.

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Why are you still calling it ASA? Pretty sure it's been ExpressJet for quite some time.

I was never a Jetlink pilot. My reflections above are relevant to the history and current state of affairs at the CRJ side of XJT.

I wish people would stop saying "don't come here" the reason why you aren't upgrading is because there aren't FOs to replace you. you need to put another individual online before you take someone offline. the more people come here the more there will be upgrades, you need people below you.

The Movement Thread for ASA
 

You are a moron. Everyone knows Expresjet is done.

Come on dude. I was hoping we could share thoughts that we'd otherwise be to shy/worried to mention infront of everyone else in the crew lounge. Let this guy believe more new hires or coming... I believed that'd happen too for the past 7 years. Now I'm sick and tired of waiting and hoping.

True but I am not going to tell somebody to come here when this place is clearly finished just to make my life potentially better.

I'm in a pretty similar situation as the OP. I went to a job fair recently and one of the people who spoke (head of hiring at a major) was talking about competitive mins and said they understand that a few regionals, specifically "Horizon and ExpressJet" have very long upgrades and it's okay if those FOs don't have any TPIC. IMHO, as senior FOs, we should keep our apps updated, go to job fairs, network, do a little volunteer work (gasp!), keep flying, enjoy the good schedule, and stop worrying about how far away the upgrade is. Don't get bitter, because it will come across in the interview and it will hurt your chances of getting hired elsewhere.

I like this post, just roll with it.

If you are sick and tired of waiting and hoping you have already answered your question.

I wasn't really sure if I wanted to release this spreadsheet that I made, but it might help some people with some what-if scenarios if they jumped ship for a flow or faster upgrade. That being said I think the fast upgrades are over for now after The Great Reshuffle of 2014-2015.

This is a purely what-if calculator. If you want to see how long it will take to flow, just sub the CA seniority with the seniority of people flowing and sub the upgrades per month with flows per month.

http://bit.ly/1EykOQh

Remember that upgrade isn't everything and the numbers that are being predicted often are not the numbers that come true. Please don't base your career decisions off this spreadsheet. It's simply a tool to see where you might be using foretasted numbers.

I'm surprised B-rad hasn't put out another monthly update to remind the FO's who are staring at a 9 year upgrade not to leave. Because that would be bad......for the company.


Just hang tight. Keep applying and then leave and let the lifers rot on the vine.

This post about sums it up for me. I agree. There are many guys in the same seniority conundrum. On the flip side, you still have a chance to acquire TPIC by going to PSA with their new announcement of still more airplanes

I sympathize with many of our FOs that have been stuck in the rights seat. However I really enjoy watching guys like you rot in the right seat. Nice attitude towards your fellow pilots.

God you're on here too? everyone do yourselves a favor and block this turd from here

The only way I see any movement is to buy out all the senior captains. It will give the 8 year right seat guys the upgrade and show upward movement to potential new hires. Every new captain wants out of the regionals, so they will not stay long. This will keep the movement going. Most of the current captains won't/can't leave, so no movement. You asked........

As an 07 DOH at Eagle I feel your pain.

*** is your problem with me? All I was doing is telling all these idiots out there how it is.

This is how you get people trolling you, by calling them idiots.

As a 12 yr Comair FO, I feel your pain and raise you 5 yrs!

Three posts and come in here acting like a hot shot. Got got a lot to learn on this forum.

First 2 posts on this thread, and you lead off with morons and idiots. Classy.

Is this a withering on the vine effect until the contract changes or does xjet really have an issue? Is this an attempt to force a PSA like ultimatum?

There are no reasons to accept a concessionary contract.

This is not a bad place to hang out. If the pay was good in the right seat, it wouldn't be a bad place to hang out for a long time. If pay was $35/hr first year, $50/hr second year. Top out in the $80 to $90/hr range by year 10. People would wait here for their 'perfect' job.

So they finally released some limited numbers. Across both pilot groups (of 3500+ pilots) 33 pilots went to majors in February and 17 so far in March. That's something but probably only 40% (22-23 pilots) of those came from ASA if they were hired away proportionally in the last 45 days. Nothing Earth shattering.

Oh, can anyone help me make sense of this. It's as if a seventh grader is doing remedial math.

So far, the pilots who have moved on to other airlines, served between one and five years at ExpressJet. In the first three months of 2015, 34 pilots have left for major carriers. The second group to move on was those with 8 to 11 years of service. These numbers have held steady from 2014 into 2015.

Wow. *slow clap*

When I was hired here (7 years ago this month) upgrade time was around 2-3 years. I thought that was fine because I was a 300 wonder and I knew I needed time to build experience before upgrade. I have since watched upgrade time go to infinity. That is really the only reason I have stayed. Just because upgrade time at blah blah regional is 6 months right now does not mean it will be 6 months after you get hired. My plan is to skip the left seat and just move on to a major. If that doesn't work within a few years I will probably leave aviation and do something else. I wish more of our lifers would move on but for the majority of them it just does not make sense and I don't blame them. They got stuck here just like FO's got stuck in the right seat. At least they can make ok money and get 4 weeks vacation while the company is still in business.

With treads like this one, no wonder new hires are not showing up for class, I got mine in May 4th and you are making me think twice now!!! thanks though

I would hope that pilots today are doing their homework and learning from the past. Personally, I would rather be stuck here with a good contract rather than risk a quick upgrade at Mesa or PSA. When that quick upgrade disappears, then what have you gotten yourself into?

.....................
Wrong thread.

News flash. The majors are hiring just as many regional FO's as captains. No upgrade or PIC necessary, only patience.

News Flash, there is NO guarantee this will be the case in the future. It's an offering on the table now that may be gone tomorrow.

So what do you do? Leave to go to a non-career airline with no PIC and potentially get stuck there or stick around for an upgrade when none are being offered?

You've hit the nail on the head, sir. Although consider there's been no communication from management regarding growth opportunities. FOs are bailing faster than they an scoop up newhires to fill their shoes then there's the solidified chunk of pilots who'll never leave or give up pay to make company more competitive against other regionals... and we're slowly bleeding airframes to the desert, aircraft leasers... come to think of it, smells a bit like COMAIR.