Envoy to get 100% flow to AA.
06-17-2015, 10:50 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Hot tub for now
Posts: 1,203
Flow is a retention tool for regional pilots. Giving up 10 or 12... years seniority it a tough pill to swallow. But thankfully management makes it really easy to leave. They have destroyed everything good about flying in 1 time zone.
06-17-2015, 12:12 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,202
Yes, I have applied, I have done my homework and I'm almost out of Envoy.
I'm not waiting for a flow, neither have TPIC. There are jobs, just have to network and get your face out. Making them match your face with a resume it helps.
I'm not waiting for a flow, neither have TPIC. There are jobs, just have to network and get your face out. Making them match your face with a resume it helps.
Originally Posted by Skyvector
Have you applied to United and Delta? How has that worked out for you so far? You claim Jr CAs are moving to better places....where? Spirit? JetBlue? That may be better than the Regionals...but it's not mainline. And even then, it's difficult to get on with those airlines.
There are 10,000+ pilots applying to the 3 majors left in the United States. Many of those 10,000+ are already working for an LCC, have more PIC time than most Regional pilots have Total Time...and an Airbus type rating to boot.
You think that you and every other wide eyed Regional pilot will some how magically skip ahead of all of them? How? Because you "really, really want the job!"?
We can be cynical about the flow until we turn blue in the face. And that is fine. Flow was never a tool of any kind in the past. The old AA back in the 90s and early 2000s didn't care about flow nor did they want it. They used it as a way to protect their pilots from furlough (letter 3) and it was never intended to actually flow any significant amount of pilots from Eagle.
That was then. This is now. To quote the infamous Scott Kirby: The world has changed. AA still prefers military pilots but they don't have an aversion to Regional pilots the way they did back in the 90s. The new AA (ex-US Airways) understands what a flow can mean for them going forward. And they have gone "all in" so to speak with Envoy and to a lesser extend Piedmont. Only because Piedmont is smaller.
You guys who keep dismissing the flow based on how it worked or didn't work 20 years ago are committing a huge fallacy. The worse thing a professional can do in any industry is be stuck in the past and not adapt to the changing environment around them.
Case and point: Still thinking that the majors will come barrel rolling through your bedroom wall when you hit the magical "1,000 hours of PIC time!".... it doesn't work that way. It never has and even less so today. Living with that in your head will only mean you are at the back of the line as your peers flow up to mainline with no interview.
Take it or leave it. People can listen to trolls like eaglefly who have ulterior motives or they can be smart about what Regional they choose to fly for. Choosing any Regional because of quickie upgrade times is a very bad move. Going to work for Mesa or Republic is a very bad move.
There are 10,000+ pilots applying to the 3 majors left in the United States. Many of those 10,000+ are already working for an LCC, have more PIC time than most Regional pilots have Total Time...and an Airbus type rating to boot.
You think that you and every other wide eyed Regional pilot will some how magically skip ahead of all of them? How? Because you "really, really want the job!"?
We can be cynical about the flow until we turn blue in the face. And that is fine. Flow was never a tool of any kind in the past. The old AA back in the 90s and early 2000s didn't care about flow nor did they want it. They used it as a way to protect their pilots from furlough (letter 3) and it was never intended to actually flow any significant amount of pilots from Eagle.
That was then. This is now. To quote the infamous Scott Kirby: The world has changed. AA still prefers military pilots but they don't have an aversion to Regional pilots the way they did back in the 90s. The new AA (ex-US Airways) understands what a flow can mean for them going forward. And they have gone "all in" so to speak with Envoy and to a lesser extend Piedmont. Only because Piedmont is smaller.
You guys who keep dismissing the flow based on how it worked or didn't work 20 years ago are committing a huge fallacy. The worse thing a professional can do in any industry is be stuck in the past and not adapt to the changing environment around them.
Case and point: Still thinking that the majors will come barrel rolling through your bedroom wall when you hit the magical "1,000 hours of PIC time!".... it doesn't work that way. It never has and even less so today. Living with that in your head will only mean you are at the back of the line as your peers flow up to mainline with no interview.
Take it or leave it. People can listen to trolls like eaglefly who have ulterior motives or they can be smart about what Regional they choose to fly for. Choosing any Regional because of quickie upgrade times is a very bad move. Going to work for Mesa or Republic is a very bad move.
06-17-2015, 12:26 PM
#33
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
Yes, I have applied, I have done my homework and I'm almost out of Envoy.
I'm not waiting for a flow, neither have TPIC. There are jobs, just have to network and get your face out. Making them match your face with a resume it helps.
I'm not waiting for a flow, neither have TPIC. There are jobs, just have to network and get your face out. Making them match your face with a resume it helps.
You are not charting unknown waters here. Everybody networks. Everybody attends job fairs. Everybody waits 3 hours in line for a 5 minute handshake with a mainline recruiter. Everybody collects stacks of recommendation letters. None of this is new, and none of it gets you any closer to a mainline job. Sure, it beats doing nothing. But it's akin to spinning your car's wheels in the mud.
The only way to truly increase your chances is if you are part of the friends and family plan. Assuming you don't have any military flight time. Other than that, you are just one out of thousands. And those other thousands are also networking and getting their face out there.
Too many of us think we are doing something nobody else is doing. That is a residual effect of our jobs. We sit in the cockpit with either a Captain or an FO but never work directly with another person who is our direct peer. So you fly around thunderstorms perfectly, make smooth landings, great radio calls, etc....and after a while you begin to get it in your head you are the best at what you do and nobody else can do it as well. You don't have another FO sitting next to you doing the same job for you to compare with. Or another Captain if that is your position.
That spills over into other areas of life. So you network and do a bunch legwork to get that mainline interview. You begin to think you are the only one doing it. You get your letters together and polish your resume and think nobody is doing it as well as you are.
Most pilots will spend years trying their best to get out of the Regionals...PIC or no PIC. An eventual job with an LCC like Frontier will be more likely to happen than United or Delta. And even then that will take a good 5 years of Regional flying to materialize. Some may get lucky, sure. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean that we should all count on a large heaping of luck to move on. If you have the opportunity to work for an airline that has a true flow, and that flow is WORKING as advertised or better....that would be a better choice than going to work for an independent Regional with no flow and rolling the dice.
06-17-2015, 01:14 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 894
Originally Posted by Skyvector
I wish you the best of luck, but you are acting like you just discovered oil on the surface of the moon.
You are not charting unknown waters here. Everybody networks. Everybody attends job fairs. Everybody waits 3 hours in line for a 5 minute handshake with a mainline recruiter. Everybody collects stacks of recommendation letters. None of this is new, and none of it gets you any closer to a mainline job. Sure, it beats doing nothing. But it's akin to spinning your car's wheels in the mud.
The only way to truly increase your chances is if you are part of the friends and family plan. Assuming you don't have any military flight time. Other than that, you are just one out of thousands. And those other thousands are also networking and getting their face out there.
Too many of us think we are doing something nobody else is doing. That is a residual effect of our jobs. We sit in the cockpit with either a Captain or an FO but never work directly with another person who is our direct peer. So you fly around thunderstorms perfectly, make smooth landings, great radio calls, etc....and after a while you begin to get it in your head you are the best at what you do and nobody else can do it as well. You don't have another FO sitting next to you doing the same job for you to compare with. Or another Captain if that is your position.
That spills over into other areas of life. So you network and do a bunch legwork to get that mainline interview. You begin to think you are the only one doing it. You get your letters together and polish your resume and think nobody is doing it as well as you are.
Most pilots will spend years trying their best to get out of the Regionals...PIC or no PIC. An eventual job with an LCC like Frontier will be more likely to happen than United or Delta. And even then that will take a good 5 years of Regional flying to materialize. Some may get lucky, sure. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean that we should all count on a large heaping of luck to move on. If you have the opportunity to work for an airline that has a true flow, and that flow is WORKING as advertised or better....that would be a better choice than going to work for an independent Regional with no flow and rolling the dice.
You are not charting unknown waters here. Everybody networks. Everybody attends job fairs. Everybody waits 3 hours in line for a 5 minute handshake with a mainline recruiter. Everybody collects stacks of recommendation letters. None of this is new, and none of it gets you any closer to a mainline job. Sure, it beats doing nothing. But it's akin to spinning your car's wheels in the mud.
The only way to truly increase your chances is if you are part of the friends and family plan. Assuming you don't have any military flight time. Other than that, you are just one out of thousands. And those other thousands are also networking and getting their face out there.
Too many of us think we are doing something nobody else is doing. That is a residual effect of our jobs. We sit in the cockpit with either a Captain or an FO but never work directly with another person who is our direct peer. So you fly around thunderstorms perfectly, make smooth landings, great radio calls, etc....and after a while you begin to get it in your head you are the best at what you do and nobody else can do it as well. You don't have another FO sitting next to you doing the same job for you to compare with. Or another Captain if that is your position.
That spills over into other areas of life. So you network and do a bunch legwork to get that mainline interview. You begin to think you are the only one doing it. You get your letters together and polish your resume and think nobody is doing it as well as you are.
Most pilots will spend years trying their best to get out of the Regionals...PIC or no PIC. An eventual job with an LCC like Frontier will be more likely to happen than United or Delta. And even then that will take a good 5 years of Regional flying to materialize. Some may get lucky, sure. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean that we should all count on a large heaping of luck to move on. If you have the opportunity to work for an airline that has a true flow, and that flow is WORKING as advertised or better....that would be a better choice than going to work for an independent Regional with no flow and rolling the dice.
The only people "regularly" getting out are going lateral, taking way lower career earning corporate pilot jobs, going to crap places like Allegiant or Frontier.. Which Frontier would take 7+ yrs just to get back to current eagle CA pay.. Some to JB and Spirit, and a few to Cargo. While some of those can certainly be a step up from here, for FO's especially.. They are not Legacy jobs and many wouldn't want to spend a career there so another jump years later is still probably going to have to happen. So get back in line to start over 1st year again if you are lucky enough to finally get hired.
The people going to actual Legacy carriers this year from Eagle outside of the flow are probably less than 30 or so. Of well over 1000+ trying, and 500 or so trying very hard. Doing everything possible with many connections.
Not sure where people get this idea that it will be so easy with the magic TPIC.. Spirit or JB maybe.. But many CA's can't even get called from there either, even with attending job fairs and internal recs. UAL, DAL, AA, Hawaiian, AK, Umm No. Those are about a 1 in 50 shot with people just like you right now. I could name most of the pilots here that have gone to UAL, DAL and AK this year and I know hundreds of pilots here very well.. Those names of people getting Legacy jobs get around quickly via word of mouth and Facebook etc.. Most that got those jobs were also working in CP office briefly, check airman or in management positions too. Regular line pilots are very few.. FO's are even fewer.
Last edited by RyanP; 06-17-2015 at 01:41 PM.
06-17-2015, 01:28 PM
#35
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Skyvector
Have you applied to United and Delta? How has that worked out for you so far? You claim Jr CAs are moving to better places....where? Spirit? JetBlue? That may be better than the Regionals...but it's not mainline. And even then, it's difficult to get on with those airlines.
There are 10,000+ pilots applying to the 3 majors left in the United States. Many of those 10,000+ are already working for an LCC, have more PIC time than most Regional pilots have Total Time...and an Airbus type rating to boot.
You think that you and every other wide eyed Regional pilot will some how magically skip ahead of all of them? How? Because you "really, really want the job!"?
We can be cynical about the flow until we turn blue in the face. And that is fine. Flow was never a tool of any kind in the past. The old AA back in the 90s and early 2000s didn't care about flow nor did they want it. They used it as a way to protect their pilots from furlough (letter 3) and it was never intended to actually flow any significant amount of pilots from Eagle.
That was then. This is now. To quote the infamous Scott Kirby: The world has changed. AA still prefers military pilots but they don't have an aversion to Regional pilots the way they did back in the 90s. The new AA (ex-US Airways) understands what a flow can mean for them going forward. And they have gone "all in" so to speak with Envoy and to a lesser extend Piedmont. Only because Piedmont is smaller.
You guys who keep dismissing the flow based on how it worked or didn't work 20 years ago are committing a huge fallacy. The worse thing a professional can do in any industry is be stuck in the past and not adapt to the changing environment around them.
Case and point: Still thinking that the majors will come barrel rolling through your bedroom wall when you hit the magical "1,000 hours of PIC time!".... it doesn't work that way. It never has and even less so today. Living with that in your head will only mean you are at the back of the line as your peers flow up to mainline with no interview.
Take it or leave it. People can listen to trolls like eaglefly who have ulterior motives or they can be smart about what Regional they choose to fly for. Choosing any Regional because of quickie upgrade times is a very bad move. Going to work for Mesa or Republic is a very bad move.
There are 10,000+ pilots applying to the 3 majors left in the United States. Many of those 10,000+ are already working for an LCC, have more PIC time than most Regional pilots have Total Time...and an Airbus type rating to boot.
You think that you and every other wide eyed Regional pilot will some how magically skip ahead of all of them? How? Because you "really, really want the job!"?
We can be cynical about the flow until we turn blue in the face. And that is fine. Flow was never a tool of any kind in the past. The old AA back in the 90s and early 2000s didn't care about flow nor did they want it. They used it as a way to protect their pilots from furlough (letter 3) and it was never intended to actually flow any significant amount of pilots from Eagle.
That was then. This is now. To quote the infamous Scott Kirby: The world has changed. AA still prefers military pilots but they don't have an aversion to Regional pilots the way they did back in the 90s. The new AA (ex-US Airways) understands what a flow can mean for them going forward. And they have gone "all in" so to speak with Envoy and to a lesser extend Piedmont. Only because Piedmont is smaller.
You guys who keep dismissing the flow based on how it worked or didn't work 20 years ago are committing a huge fallacy. The worse thing a professional can do in any industry is be stuck in the past and not adapt to the changing environment around them.
Case and point: Still thinking that the majors will come barrel rolling through your bedroom wall when you hit the magical "1,000 hours of PIC time!".... it doesn't work that way. It never has and even less so today. Living with that in your head will only mean you are at the back of the line as your peers flow up to mainline with no interview.
Take it or leave it. People can listen to trolls like eaglefly who have ulterior motives or they can be smart about what Regional they choose to fly for. Choosing any Regional because of quickie upgrade times is a very bad move. Going to work for Mesa or Republic is a very bad move.
That's all I've done........be cynical about the present flow, which you supposedly believe is fine, yet demonstrate you don't by your salesmanship and criticism of that skepticism. Just like a true salesman though. The fact is YOUR ulterior motive is to get pilots to Envoy and clearly NOT to other regionals. It's so obvious, it's become grotesque. Yes, the past flow (Letter 3) WAS indeed designed primarily as furlough protection for junior AA pilots and the arbitration history demonstrates that, but the present flow, especially at Envoy is NOT supported by reasonable foundations that are REQUIRED for it to work as advertised (AKA sold)......at least YET. THAT requires a minimum of TWO commitments that must CONTINUE to function correctly for as long as that flow-through is in place. First, AAG has to commit to it by committing to Envoy/Piedmont/PSA etc. as the sole advertised methodology to get to AA and that is NOT the same as the managements of Envoy/Piedmont/PSA advertising X years to upgrade/flow based on projections which can change overnight. Then, the more difficult (actually almost impossible) of the two commitments requires in Envoy's case the hiring of at least 50 pilots/month to supply the fuel to make that engine run or at the very least a sufficient number of pilots to meet whatever flow AAG requires. If that number goes down monthly, the 2.5 upgrade/6 year flow projection almost certainly slows.
Without those two commitments that must demonstrate themselves to be successful, all that's left are projections and promises, both of which have been made in the past repeatedly at Eagle/Envoy and both of which have always not materialized as advertised (sold). It doesn't matter how many times trolls like you parrot the claims and promises made to you as without those commitments, that's all they will remain.......claims and promises. Demanding or expecting other pilots turn off their thinking caps and become certified morons and just blindly following your begging and pleading isn't doing anything for anyone but yourself.
By your own admission, the world changes and what was then isn't now. Your primary error is not applying those inevitable rules to yourself in that the world can easily change once again at any time and what is now, is not guaranteed to be then and that is the point. No one can promise you a rose garden to play in tomorrow and you can't promise that other pilots that either.
06-17-2015, 01:32 PM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by PilotJ3
Yes, I have applied, I have done my homework and I'm almost out of Envoy.
I'm not waiting for a flow, neither have TPIC. There are jobs, just have to network and get your face out. Making them match your face with a resume it helps.
I'm not waiting for a flow, neither have TPIC. There are jobs, just have to network and get your face out. Making them match your face with a resume it helps.
06-17-2015, 01:33 PM
#37
Pilot
Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 149
The flow through contract sounds great, but why is Envoy struggling to attract more pilots than other regional airlines? Yes, there's a pilot shortage, but other regional airlines are filling their new hire classes while Envoy gets less than 30 a month. Also, why is Envoy closing bases everywhere (down to only DFW and ORD)? For the airline to be more appealing to potential new hires it has to prove that it can keep its domiciles open and reassure everyone that it won't get any worse. Not being negative here, just honestly curious.
06-17-2015, 01:37 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 894
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Oh, how you salesman like to slice and dice the facts to get the sale.
That's all I've done........be cynical about the present flow, which you supposedly believe is fine, yet demonstrate you don't by your salesmanship and criticism of that skepticism. Just like a true salesman though. The fact is YOUR ulterior motive is to get pilots to Envoy and clearly NOT to other regionals. It's so obvious, it's become grotesque. Yes, the past flow (Letter 3) WAS indeed designed primarily as furlough protection for junior AA pilots and the arbitration history demonstrates that, but the present flow, especially at Envoy is NOT supported by reasonable foundations that are REQUIRED for it to work as advertised (AKA sold)......at least YET. THAT requires a minimum of TWO commitments that must CONTINUE to function correctly for as long as that flow-through is in place. First, AAG has to commit to it by committing to Envoy/Piedmont/PSA etc. as the sole advertised methodology to get to AA and that is NOT the same as the managements of Envoy/Piedmont/PSA advertising X years to upgrade/flow based on projections which can change overnight. Then, the more difficult (actually almost impossible) of the two commitments requires in Envoy's case the hiring of at least 50 pilots/month to supply the fuel to make that engine run or at the very least a sufficient number of pilots to meet whatever flow AAG requires. If that number goes down monthly, the 2.5 upgrade/6 year flow projection almost certainly slows.
Without those two commitments that must demonstrate themselves to be successful, all that's left are projections and promises, both of which have been made in the past repeatedly at Eagle/Envoy and both of which have always not materialized as advertised (sold). It doesn't matter how many times trolls like you parrot the claims and promises made to you as without those commitments, that's all they will remain.......claims and promises. Demanding or expecting other pilots turn off their thinking caps and become certified morons and just blindly following your begging and pleading isn't doing anything for anyone but yourself.
By your own admission, the world changes and what was then isn't now. Your primary error is not applying those inevitable rules to yourself in that the world can easily change once again at any time and what is now, is not guaranteed to be then and that is the point. No one can promise you a rose garden to play in tomorrow and you can't promise that other pilots that either.
That's all I've done........be cynical about the present flow, which you supposedly believe is fine, yet demonstrate you don't by your salesmanship and criticism of that skepticism. Just like a true salesman though. The fact is YOUR ulterior motive is to get pilots to Envoy and clearly NOT to other regionals. It's so obvious, it's become grotesque. Yes, the past flow (Letter 3) WAS indeed designed primarily as furlough protection for junior AA pilots and the arbitration history demonstrates that, but the present flow, especially at Envoy is NOT supported by reasonable foundations that are REQUIRED for it to work as advertised (AKA sold)......at least YET. THAT requires a minimum of TWO commitments that must CONTINUE to function correctly for as long as that flow-through is in place. First, AAG has to commit to it by committing to Envoy/Piedmont/PSA etc. as the sole advertised methodology to get to AA and that is NOT the same as the managements of Envoy/Piedmont/PSA advertising X years to upgrade/flow based on projections which can change overnight. Then, the more difficult (actually almost impossible) of the two commitments requires in Envoy's case the hiring of at least 50 pilots/month to supply the fuel to make that engine run or at the very least a sufficient number of pilots to meet whatever flow AAG requires. If that number goes down monthly, the 2.5 upgrade/6 year flow projection almost certainly slows.
Without those two commitments that must demonstrate themselves to be successful, all that's left are projections and promises, both of which have been made in the past repeatedly at Eagle/Envoy and both of which have always not materialized as advertised (sold). It doesn't matter how many times trolls like you parrot the claims and promises made to you as without those commitments, that's all they will remain.......claims and promises. Demanding or expecting other pilots turn off their thinking caps and become certified morons and just blindly following your begging and pleading isn't doing anything for anyone but yourself.
By your own admission, the world changes and what was then isn't now. Your primary error is not applying those inevitable rules to yourself in that the world can easily change once again at any time and what is now, is not guaranteed to be then and that is the point. No one can promise you a rose garden to play in tomorrow and you can't promise that other pilots that either.
Answer = 0
We are putting more pilots at Legacy carriers than anyone else right now. Vast majority being AA.
You can't argue with that. It's a fact.
06-17-2015, 01:38 PM
#39
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Skyvector
I wish you the best of luck, but you are acting like you just discovered oil on the surface of the moon.
You are not charting unknown waters here. Everybody networks. Everybody attends job fairs. Everybody waits 3 hours in line for a 5 minute handshake with a mainline recruiter. Everybody collects stacks of recommendation letters. None of this is new, and none of it gets you any closer to a mainline job. Sure, it beats doing nothing. But it's akin to spinning your car's wheels in the mud.
The only way to truly increase your chances is if you are part of the friends and family plan. Assuming you don't have any military flight time. Other than that, you are just one out of thousands. And those other thousands are also networking and getting their face out there.
Too many of us think we are doing something nobody else is doing. That is a residual effect of our jobs. We sit in the cockpit with either a Captain or an FO but never work directly with another person who is our direct peer. So you fly around thunderstorms perfectly, make smooth landings, great radio calls, etc....and after a while you begin to get it in your head you are the best at what you do and nobody else can do it as well. You don't have another FO sitting next to you doing the same job for you to compare with. Or another Captain if that is your position.
That spills over into other areas of life. So you network and do a bunch legwork to get that mainline interview. You begin to think you are the only one doing it. You get your letters together and polish your resume and think nobody is doing it as well as you are.
Most pilots will spend years trying their best to get out of the Regionals...PIC or no PIC. An eventual job with an LCC like Frontier will be more likely to happen than United or Delta. And even then that will take a good 5 years of Regional flying to materialize. Some may get lucky, sure. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean that we should all count on a large heaping of luck to move on. If you have the opportunity to work for an airline that has a true flow, and that flow is WORKING as advertised or better....that would be a better choice than going to work for an independent Regional with no flow and rolling the dice.
You are not charting unknown waters here. Everybody networks. Everybody attends job fairs. Everybody waits 3 hours in line for a 5 minute handshake with a mainline recruiter. Everybody collects stacks of recommendation letters. None of this is new, and none of it gets you any closer to a mainline job. Sure, it beats doing nothing. But it's akin to spinning your car's wheels in the mud.
The only way to truly increase your chances is if you are part of the friends and family plan. Assuming you don't have any military flight time. Other than that, you are just one out of thousands. And those other thousands are also networking and getting their face out there.
Too many of us think we are doing something nobody else is doing. That is a residual effect of our jobs. We sit in the cockpit with either a Captain or an FO but never work directly with another person who is our direct peer. So you fly around thunderstorms perfectly, make smooth landings, great radio calls, etc....and after a while you begin to get it in your head you are the best at what you do and nobody else can do it as well. You don't have another FO sitting next to you doing the same job for you to compare with. Or another Captain if that is your position.
That spills over into other areas of life. So you network and do a bunch legwork to get that mainline interview. You begin to think you are the only one doing it. You get your letters together and polish your resume and think nobody is doing it as well as you are.
Most pilots will spend years trying their best to get out of the Regionals...PIC or no PIC. An eventual job with an LCC like Frontier will be more likely to happen than United or Delta. And even then that will take a good 5 years of Regional flying to materialize. Some may get lucky, sure. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean that we should all count on a large heaping of luck to move on. If you have the opportunity to work for an airline that has a true flow, and that flow is WORKING as advertised or better....that would be a better choice than going to work for an independent Regional with no flow and rolling the dice.
On one hand you guys all claim the Envoy flow is just a back-up plan and something "nice to have in your back pocket" if the traditional methods of advancement in the industry don't pan out and then when a pilot does exactly that, i.e., successfully go to where THEY may want to, you belittle that as a foolish move because it isn't to where YOU think they should go (to Envoy and then AA via a supposedly certain flow-through) and THAT is "rolling the dice" ?
Good lord, we've pole-vaulted into the surreal. I guess when a tenacious salesmen grabs on, he doesn't let go............
06-17-2015, 01:44 PM
#40
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by LeadFoot
The flow through contract sounds great, but why is Envoy struggling to attract more pilots than other regional airlines? Yes, there's a pilot shortage, but other regional airlines are filling their new hire classes while Envoy gets less than 30 a month. Also, why is Envoy closing bases everywhere (down to only DFW and ORD)? For the airline to be more appealing to potential new hires it has to prove that it can keep its domiciles open and reassure everyone that it won't get any worse. Not being negative here, just honestly curious.
It's FAR less then that. The FACTS are that regardless of the present sales letters and song-and-dance routines of a handful of snake-oil hucksters here, Envoy WILL shrink. Wilsons own numbers demonstrate that in the very letter that included his projections. AAG has made ZERO additional long-term commitments to Envoy's fleet renewal since the 40 E-175's and Envoy is bringing in a fraction of the pilots needed to support a steady, long-term flow that will benefit any pilot hired today or later.
The foundations of all these projections and claims simply isn't there and until they are, it's all smoke and mirrors by a handful who themselves are the ones with ulterior motives and hidden agendas.
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