Circle to Land - VMC only question
 

We've got an interesting discussion going about this restriction.

From my view, "vmc" references line of sight to the runway during a circle and I wouldn't think cloud clearances apply as you are still on an instrument procedure however my buddy pointed to the definition of VMC.

Visual meteorological conditions (VMC) means meteorological conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from clouds, and ceiling equal to or better than specified minima.

His argument is that we need to adhere to the cloud clearances while circling.

Does anyone have a reference that states that distance from clouds does not matter while circling?

Distance from clouds is only defined in terms of operating under VFR as far as I know. A circle to land maneuver is conducted under IFR, just like a visual approach. A visual approach does not require any distance from clouds in any type of airspace, just to remain clear. Only caveat would be if distance from clouds is required per your ops specs.

I believe that to be cleared for a visual approach, the ceiling has to be at least 500 feet above the minimum vectoring altitude (MVA).

Please, Check your opspecs for visual approach. Ours require in order to accept a visual approach we must maintain cloud clearance in accordance with 91.155.

Your opspecs will also say what cloud clearance is required for circle to land.

I have never heard of this before. If this were true then cloud ceilings would probably have to be at least 2500' AGL at all radar airports, and visual approaches would be unauthorized at most non-radar airports. AIM 5-4-23 spells out visual approach requirements very specifically:

5-4-23. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight. This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial. Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.


Unless there is something in the ATC handbook that I am unaware of, I don't see any mention of an MVA cloud clearance minimum.

It is in our ops specs too to require cloud clearance for a visual approach. However, our ops specs specifically authorize only "clear of clouds" for a circle to land maneuver, to try and answer the original question.

This^^^. A circling approach is a visual approach on an IFR flight plan. Having positive contact with the ground (runway) is not the same thing as VMC. Remain clear of clouds and maintain visual contact with runway.

I was mistaken. I was thinking of this:

To provide “vectors” for a visual approach, the reported ceiling at the landing field must be at least 500 feet above the MVA.

With this restriction on your type rating, you can not circle to land if the reported conditions at the airport are less than VMC (1000 ft. ceiling and 3 miles visibility). It has nothing to do with a visual approach, being able to maintain visual contact with the airport or being clear of clouds.
You can also tell if the airport is below VMC if the green/white beacon is on during daylight hours.

A circle to land "maneuver" is not a visual approach.

Visual portion of an instrument approach. VMC doesn't apply to it. That was the point.

I don't believe the original question was referring to a restriction on a type rating...only the maneuver itself. Also, a circle to land maneuver has everything to do with remaining clear of clouds and maintaining visual contact with the runway. The whole maneuver is predicated on that.

,
 

Then why is the title of the thread "Circle to land-VMC only"?
The first sentence from the OP talks about an interesting discussion he is having concerning this "restriction".

Of course maintaining a visual with the runway and remaining clear of clouds are critical for a circle to land maneuver, but if you do not have reported VMC conditions and you have this restriction on your license, you can not even begin the maneuver, even if you could guarantee those things.

This thread got off track quick. To answer the original question, you do not have to have cloud clearance requirements to conduct a circling maneuver unless required by your ops specs. VMC is defined by visibility, ceiling, and as mentioned cloud clearance requirements. The only definition of cloud clearance requirements is in FAR 91.155 which covers VFR flight rules. Because you are operating under IFR in a circle to land maneuver these do not apply. Bottom line, check your ops-specs. If they say that it is only "clear of clouds" for a circle to land maneuver, this is what is intended and is legal to do.

My comment wasn't directed at you. There were guys implying that a circle to land maneuver was in fact a visual approach. Just wanted to make clear that they are 2 different things.

This is a good discussion. As an Air Force pilot, here are the requirements for circling...

"If a circling approach is to be flown, the weather must be at or above both the published ceiling and visibility. Circling to land is a visual flight maneuver. When the instrument approach is completed, it is used to align the aircraft with the landing runway. After descending to circling minimum descent altitude and when the airport environment is in sight, determine if the ceiling and visibility are sufficient for performing the circling maneuver. The airport environment is considered the runways, its lights and markings, taxiways, hangars, and other buildings associated with the airport."
Air Force Manual 11-217Vol1

So as long as the WX (ceiling and vis) is at or above the mins, I can shoot the approach, and as long as I can keep the airport environment in sight, I can descend below MDA to intercept a normal glide path for landing. So the way I was taught, I don't need VMC conditions (1500/3 for USAF).

Thread post alibi...Please don't blast me for posting USAF criteria. LOL! Just wanted to contribute to the discussion.

If your type certificate states "Circle to Land VMC only", you haven't received the required training to conduct true circle to land approaches and are therefore restricted to VMC (3 miles and 1,000 foot ceiling) conditions, unless the circle to land procedure has higher minimums posted.

Sorry if my original question was not clear. Our discussion was spurred by the type restriction and wether you are legal to perform a circle when the ceiling is lower than 1,500 ft. I.e. ... Whether you need to be 500 below the ceiling.

West coast, thanks. This makes sense to me and I'll go search the op specs for more info.

No, as with all instrument approaches, you need only remain clear of clouds. There are no VFR rules or requirements to meet when circling.

That makes sense. I've confirmed that there is no additional requirement in our op specs either.

You guys have waaayyy to much time...

No doubt. It was a really, really long flight.

Kinda hard to remain clear of clouds on an ILS, LOC, LDA, VOR, NDB, or GPS approach in IMC. Just saying.

Sorry, I should've clarified. As with all visual based approaches on an IFR flight plan (Contact, Visual, Circling) and the visual segments of instrument approaches (below DA/MDA)

Look at the cat D and higher minimums for circling approaches. The visibility exceeds the visibility required for a visual approach due to the turn radius required at higher speeds.

If your airline opspecs or the manufacturer classify your A/C type as cat D (CRJ200s) there is no sense in training the maneuver since cat D minimums will push the approach into the visual approach category.

I worked at an airline that, for a short time, sold CRJ200 type ratings to people and then hired the ones they felt were competent. The training was done outside of the airline's training program and so they trained the circling maneuver. These pilots were issued unrestricted type ratings. At the same time pilots going through the same training inside the airline program were not trained on the maneuver and were issued restricted types.

If you are issued an ATP through an air carrier program with the VMC circle to land restriction, you are limited to 1000/3. You will find this within one of your regulatory (FAA approved) manuals. You will see no lower than published MDA or 1000ft and 3 miles above airport elevation to derive legal mins. If you are issued an unrestricted type without the circling you will see the verbiage to only be mins for your approach category of aircraft.

Finally, someone gets it!

C075 is the governing OpSpec. Each company has specific limitations approved therein. Your company's FOM, FCOM FOTM or whatever your company procedures manual is named should have a description of the requirements, limitations and procedures for complying with C075.