Direct Entry Captain
 

With all the talk about hiring DECs and short upgrades in the regional world, I think a discussion on "readiness" to upgrade is worthwhile.

Can anyone please share their experiences on short upgrade or direct entry captain (good and bad).

I have over 2k 121, but have been out of the game for almost 10 years. So, information particular to that realm would be preferable.

As an aside, all due respect to the long term FOs slogging away out there, this isn't meant to draw any hard feelings. I know all too well the long FO hardships that essentially squeezed me out years ago.

Thanks!

Endless reserve

Same boat as you, but it's only been 8 years (not that that really makes a difference). The quick upgrade with these kinds of times is very possible. I got just hired at Piedmont and one reason I chose them was the quick upgrade. That said, do either of us have any business going directly to a left seat? Hellll no. I'm planning on sitting as an FO until I feel comfortable upgrading and then I will throw my bid in. Luckily, with the short upgrade times, I will be the limiting factor for upgrade, not the airline!

Sort of related to this topic, I'm very surprised ALPA national has not called for an end to whipsawing regional carriers for safety reasons.

Shifting flying from one carrier to another essentially takes a Captain job from an experienced FO and gives it to someone who just happens to be in the right place in the right time and may have much less experience.

I realize these are blanket statements and there are plenty of DEC's who make great Captains. However, the point remains, whipsawing results in less experienced crews operating aircraft. Sometimes with new Captains flying with new FO's.

I think the whipsaw game is almost played out, but always wondered why ALPA national failed to point out how this could be unsafe.


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ALPA's own design supports the whipsaw. Different chapters within the same "union" working against each other.. not to mention major vs. regional. But I don't know enough history to know who to curse at about scope clauses. :(

Alpa works for the company, not the pilots at the regional level. It's the companies free police department keeping pilots in line.

Regional pilots are fooled into thinking they have a union when in fact you pay alpa to do the companies bidding.

How could alpa possibly support both mainline and regional pilots? It's a conflict of interest. Don't worry though, there is still time to sign up for the next Alpa Fee for Departure interview workshop. See my point??

This reason is towards the end of the list on why the whipsaw should end.

Go look TR or PM in the eye and tell them they do the company's bidding.

Please explain specifically how having ALPA on both Mainline and Regional properties is a conflict of interest.

And then tell us all what ALPA has to do with hiring at the mainline level.

1.) Sellout on scope
2.) Represent those pilots
3.) Profit

Soooooo....... ALPA had a direct hand in creating an underclass of pilots specifically so they could collect LESS dues than they would had those aircraft stayed on mainline certificates, then forced themselves upon said pilot groups? Pretty sure those regional carriers had to vote in ALPA themselves......

I will grant you that the decisions that created the FFD carriers as we know them today were short sighted, but the idea that's it's just some sort of ALPA moneymaking scheme ignores a whole lot of reality.

One big factor in the success or failure of a DEC is aircraft type. If a person has been flying one type of aircraft for several years for company A, then moves to company B to upgrade on the same plane, then I would say the success chance is very high as all they really have to do is adapt to the new company's procedures. It is more difficult (although many people have done it successfully) to move from one type of airplane as an FO and upgrade on a completely different type. Probably the most difficult is moving from prop to jet or vice versa. In that case I'd say it'd be highly beneficial to get some right seat time first just to learn the new plane.

Guys at mainline do this all the time. You can be right seat of an airbus for years then upgrade to the -88 or 737 or some other completely different airplane and have no problems. Granted the company procedures will all be the same, just various nuances for different aircraft types.

You realize you just negated your original argument. I will concede that as a DEC it is WAY easier if you've been a CA on that model A/C.

Opinion rant
ALPA national did exactly that in the summer of 2013. Sent a proclamation of no whipsaw and no B scale.
Then a few months later national signed the whipsaw concessionary B scale TA at PSA and all the other pilot groups that had voted no - some several times - had to play the game again since national backed out on their promise

Not completely because they are staying with the same company as far as general philosophy for policies and procedures so that eases the jump between aircraft. One of the issues that DEC's had coming through at PSA was trying to dump their "other airline" habits, callouts, etc. Most guys were sharp and worked through it fine, while others had the mentality that their old way was best and they struggled much more.

In my experience changing planes and changing airlines is not that difficult as long as you put in the time to read the manuals and study hard during training. I went from being an ATR Captain at one airline to a 737 FO (my first jet) at another to a direct entry Captain at yet another airline. It was a little intimidating having my first flight in the aircraft in the left seat out of DCA departing from runway 01, but I did it and was signed off right at the minimum 25 hr required.

I would normally not support DEC hiring but the airline I'm currently working for grew so quickly that they needed Captains and didn't have FO's that wanted to upgrade or that were qualified. Recently there have been rumors, most likely unfounded, that they may hire DEC's again, this time because they need Captains but don't want to upgrade because they can't hire FO's. This is absolutely wrong and I don't support DEC's bypassing eligible FO's that want to upgrade.

The ALPA is bad argument is probably best for another thread as it doesn't relate directly to DEC's. However, I will voice my opinion. ALPA representing the regionals and the majors is a definite conflict of interest. There really should be one union that represents only the regionals and pushes for a standard contract across all regional airlines. With that said I'd like to see the demise of the regional industry as a whole. CRJ-700/900 and EMB-170/175's should be mainline birds. It really upsets me seeing single type certificate aircraft like the 170/190 being flown with one at the regional airlines and one at mainline.

Didn't United and/or DAL have a CRJ-700 payscale at some point? Of course, nobody voted to bring the aircraft on property. I can't see too many major guys (plenty of whom just came from the regionals) voting to go back to the Climb Restricted Jet* anytime soon.


*Admittedly, this does not apply to the -700. Saw 5,100 fpm this morning out of SFO :)

There are guys out there with prior (and extremely recent) CA 121 time jumping to another regional with different AC, bidding CA, and failing out.

All I can say is that if I were in that situation, I would make damn sure I was ready before updating my permanent bid

Its all a god damn gamble, from the first day you start your private pilots license until your last check ride or medical.

Staying in shape, knowing your BP, knowing material before an oral/checkride is hardly a gamble.

Knew a guy who went in for a medical and found out his kidneys were failing. Medical pulled, put on the transplant list, and out of a job, not to mention found out his life was in danger all within a week. Rough.

You put the odds greatly in your favor, still though, always that human element with the examiner that is outside your control. Friend of mine didn't know the wheel base of his airplane, new examiner failed him for it.

along the lines of the OP, if you have been out of 121 flying for a long time, I think it would not be a good idea to take a DEC in anything. Even a plane you flew 10 years ago. I remember back when I upgraded at a regional. I had a lot of time in the plane as an FO, I upgraded in the same plane in the same domicile and hub system. Flying the plane was the easy part, everything was familiar. But being the PIC , especially at a regional puts everything on you. Where I worked, the dispatchers were not experienced, the station managers, rampers, etc were mostly college kids working part time. You had to watch everything, because when the s*&^ hits the fans, it all comes down on the CA. I had dispatcher try to send me out with one way fuel, to and airport with no fuel!!. Give me a release to a closed airport, etc.
before 911 I trained at a major where they put new hires with CAs that were upgrading to the plane. Even though many of these guys never flew an Airbus I could see training was easier for them because all the company procedures and op specs etc, where second nature to them, where as it was all new to me.
We all know regional training is minimal at best. I think it would be much less stressful if you started out as an FO, learned the airplane, the company procedures and the system they fly in,etc, get a few months under you belt and then upgrade.

Oh please, I'm sure there were other reasons.

Thoughtful post. Thanks.

Nonsense........

I'm at TSA, and overall I think flying with the CQFO's isn't a big deal. Most of them have been really good pilots, and the only real weakness I've personally encountered was that some were not 100% comfortable with the left seat because of only flying ~20% of the time as a captain. I don't think the seat switching is a good idea, personally. However, that is what our contract allows, and we aren't the only carrier that does it. But I have to imagine, that it makes things harder for the CQs that have all come from other airlines, and especially those from another airframe.

With that being said, the two worst captains I've flown with here by far were quick upgrades (7 or 8 month upgrades). I believe both of these pilots for whatever reason didn't qualify for the CQFO program. They flew a couple hundred hours at most as an FO in the 145 and then somehow passed upgrade and captian IOE. Terrible airmanship and complete lack of basic knowledge and common sense with both....

Just my 2c.

Interesting. I assume the 7 month upgrades had 121 time prior to coming on board? If so, you'd think 7 months as an FO would be enough experience to upgrade on top of what she came in with.

I also wonder since the "pilot shortage," regionals have become much less picky in who they hire which is now (a year or two later) resulting in more upgrade failures and/or career FOs.

The two captains I'm referring to weren't made CQFO upon hire, one wasn't current, and the other I'm not sure (I can only speculate that there was something sketchy in his background that the company wouldn't allow him to be a CQFO at the time he was hired).

Like I said out of all the CQFOS I flew with, they were all well qualified and decent pilots imho.

I know the turning radius of the Boeings I have flown (727, 757, 747), but who cares about the wheel base. Not really talked about; maybe if your talking footprint...