Leave your regional for ULCC?
 

Spirit now has a minimum TT of 2000 hours. I'm not sure what Frontier has as minimum quals. Anyone going to Spirit or Frontier instead of upgrading at your regional? Or do you think most guys are staying to get their PIC time so they have a chance at a legacy?

I am staying at my regional for the PIC time. PIC time is valuable in case you ever want to progress to anywhere be it 121, 135 or 91. SIC on an A320 is still just SIC.

Seconded. With the upgrade time being as low as it currently is at select regionals, I would rather stay and become a regional captain rather than becoming a Bus FO.

Yup not going to do that.

It will be attractive to some, especially as the regional model fails. A320 type and sic is more valuable than being just another cfi with rj type and sic time.

Additionally, many are being hired at legacies now without tpic. It helps, but its not everything it used to be.

The consensus among friends seems to be that an LCC jump is best if you're stuck as perma-FO, already have 1000 PIC, or it means an end to commuting.

Exactly. Once I get my dose of 1000 tpic I will weigh my options at an LCC. But upgrade is right around the corner for me.

If I was an FO at a company like Envoy or XJT and my upgrade was more than 2 years away, I would leave to an LCC.

Since I recently upgraded at my regional I am not considering any other LLCs. A temporary paycut and lack of building additional PIC is just not worth it to me especially since I live in base.

Not to mention you lose all those wonderful mainline travel bennies!

Would have taken me 5 years to make what I made as an RJ captain at a ULCC. Unless the ship is about to go under water, stay with it if you are a captain.

Seems that for most people, sticking with a regional is better for their career atm. When i was at WIA, i asked UAL and delta this exact question if going to a LCC would give me a leg up. Neither said they cared about the airbus type. Both said PIC time in the 145 would be preferable to SIC in the airbus. They even said I'd be better sitting tight and building the 85 hours of sic a month I'm getting, than being out of the cockpit for training and reserve, etc.

IMO, let the shortage hit the LCCs. Maybe they will be forced to start paying a salary more competitive with the type of aircraft they operate.

And legacies will have shorter upgrades now. All future CAs have already been hired at Spirit and frontier for their current orders. Look for 5+ year upgrades at spirit.

Year 2 at B6 you can make pretty close to six figures if you work it right that's if you get the BUS.
The whole 1000 picT is yester years news. Not unless you are about to upgrade on a RJ and you want the experience then do it. If you don't at least have your resume out at ever airline that flies aircraft with type ratings that pay then you don't have a decision weather to leave or not.
I would rather have an Airbus, Boeing type and two years of seniority at XYZ than 1000 hrs on a RJ...

I'm hearing more and more that FOs who moved on to spirit and other low cost companies are having better luck at getting hired at legacy carriers due to them wanting to protect the regional feed. Why pillage from the regionals when you can plunder from the competition. Not sure what I will do.

There are a lot of pilots who don't understand the difference between causality and correlation.

For example, lets say you have two pilot groups--one of which has 5,000 pilots and one of which has 1,000. United might hire 10% of each pilot group (500 from one--100 from the other), and then out on the internet forums you have a bunch of pilots from those companies claiming one regional is favored by United and the other isn't, when in fact it's simply math/chance--no selection bias at all.

There could be a "correlation but not causation" bias operating when ULCC pilots get hired at legacies in higher numbers than regional pilots. The people getting hired at Spirit--as a group, on average--likely have college degrees, were not satisfied with their regional, and/or have some money in the bank or a rich spouse allowing them to take that first year paycut and not starve. Add it all up and the group of people who have left regionals for ULCCs are likely a more "hireable" group than the average regional CA/FO, if that makes sense.

It is likely that there is no selection bias of regional vs. ULCC pilot at the legacies, but rather that the pilots who have left regionals for ULCCs are inherently more thirsty for career progress and/or hire-able than the average regional pilot.

Just a thought.

It's not about pay, it's about QOL. A LCC often gives you a much higher QOL than a regional. Granted, every regional can be comfortable enough once you reach a certain point, to not be thirsty. Even so, the party is coming to an end, better to get out now.

In reality, JetBlue is not a Low Cost Carrier. Neither is Southwest.

I think a more accurate classification would be-

Legacies, Majors, LCCs, and regionals.

Thanks for the answers fellas. I work at Spirit and I personally wouldn't leave a regional for a ULCC unless I already have my 1000TPIC (and I could afford te pay cut). Even then I'm not sure if it helps you move on to a legacy. We have lost a few pilots to the Legacies but I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with Airbus SIC time.

I think this will become more of a factor as time passes. As hiring ramps up, regional CEO's are going to be pleading with their major partners to NOT hire their pilots.

In a crunch it's obviously better to hurt your low-cost competition that your own regional feed. No-brainer.

For the noobs...yes this has happened before.

And there's a difference between an ULCC and an LCC.

At SKW the general attitude seems to be young FO's and some junior CA's are willing to go to ULCC's and ACMI on the assumption that it's a stepping stone with better pay than regionals.

Most CA's are not willing to take a big pay cut that could last for many, many years. I wouldn't do it because I would never make up the pay until I upgraded at a ULCC and who knows how long that might take.

By the same logic, didn't and wouldn't legacies hire from the competition's feed to hurt their counterparts?

Ah yes, the dreaded "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.

Absolutely, but today most regionals have multiple partners so the options are limited there.

Using similar logic, couldn't the legacies just hire all the ULCC pilots to cripple the low cost competition as opposed to actually competing with them? if Spirit had 30 leaving a month it would put a stop to their growth immediately.

Who said they won't do that in the future?

As hard as it was to leave a Captain job to take a pay cut to go to a ULCC I can say that my QOL has vastly improved since leaving the regionals. The lines where I am now average 15-16 days off per month and in Winter months top 17 days off average. Every person will have a different set of circumstances and reasons to either stay or make the move. But one thing is clear. Almost everyone regardless of where you are will have their shot eventually at one of the legacies if that's where they want to be. Whether you're a regional FO, Captain, or ULCC pilot.

With that logic Delta would chase after United's feed and United would chase Delta regional pilots. I doubt either is actually happening. I have had two CPs tell me that yes people are getting hired without the PIC time but they are the exception not the rule.

I also believe JB and SW are far closer to being a major than they are to being Spirit or Frontier. I imagine when SW finally gets their new contract it will be on par with what the major 737 guys are making.

I agree. The QOL at a ULCC such as Frontier or Spirit is better than most (if not all) regionals, and the earning potential is also much more in the long run. That is why I don't think it is a bad move to go to a place like that AFTER you get 1000 TPIC. If for some reason I never get hired at a legacy id rather be stuck at Spirit than a regional. However, if you go to a ULCC prior to getting 1000TPIC, you may have just limited your upward mobility. That may be okay for people who already have limited upward mobility (no college degree, DUI etc.). In short, I think leaving for a ULCC from the right seat of a regional is foolish.

What about hurting your direct competitions regional feed? In this era Delta started doing it in 2012.

There are 3 year captains at every Spirit base. With opportunities for trips being paid on top of guarantee, move up pay, and junior assignments, you can make in the $90s year 2 FO. Thats at $72 / hr current contract. When the new one is signed, I'm betting at least $95 / hr year 2.
I made $117k my last year as RJ Capt. Year 1 is a huge pay cut, but I have serious doubts my regional will even exist in 4 years.

2 guys in my Jan class left for the legacies immediately after their type.

3 years ago it made sense to go to spirit. The legacy hiring hadn't ramped up yet and spirit had 50 airframes with 100 on order. TODAY spirit has 100 planes with 50 on order. If you come to spirit now there is not enough growth to guarantee you an upgrade EVER!... certainly not in 3 years!

I believe Spirit, and Jet Blue both have issues with pilots leaving for the legacies. Yes, both are airlines that people have as their destination by choice, but looking down the road, 5, 10 years, you won't be hurting.

I'm staying put till flow. With the current contracts in place and projected growth and movement I'm on track to easily make 7 million over the next 34 years (should I choose to stay that long). That's not including any 401k matches, profit sharing or income properties I plan on branching myself into.

Is it a guarantee? Of course not. But it's a pretty damn good risk vs reward. Enjoy those LCC's!!

About 85 in service. 5 NEOs and a couple more airplanes yet to arrive this year.
Original plan was to give back all but 6 319s by 2021. While still a net increase, Spirit has announced buying some off lease, with 3 of those slated for give back being kept, with maybe 7 more to buy. This is a net increase of up to 10 that were not on the books last year. This net increase, even if upgrade goes to 4 years is better than 8.5 year upgrade at XJT, who can't get dual-class flying, and loses flying every day to SKYW. When the new CEO abandons her post after just 10 MONTHS, that's a sign.
Upgrades continue at Spirit. If you come here and never leave, you will make double at the peak of your carrer than you can make at a regional. The leaked mgt contract proposal from last year had FOs topping out at $149 / hr. Much better than RJ capt. $230 + for captains. This proposal was not even entertained by the pilot group.

Last year's FOs have moved half way up their domicile list in one year. I'm a '16 hire with over 150 behind me already, moving up about 5 spots per month.

SCHEDULING Dept.
I'm no expert. I've been at my ULCC for 6 months, but let me tell you the difference between ULCC Scheduling, and scheduling at the regional I just left.
1. REGIONAL:
I upgraded at the regional, having not been on reserve for a decade. After IOE, they slapped reserve days on me. I didn't want to do them. Guess what? Too bad! Had to buy hotel rooms in DTW, KNOWING they wouldn't call me.
ULCC:
After IOE, I was slapped with 6 reserve days in ACY. Ouch. Went to Flica and DROPPED ALL 6, instantaneously. Then I picked up two trips in a different domicile that were both commutable.
2. REGIONAL: Mid-trip, getting into your overnight. ACARS from scheduling: You aren't done. You are now operating flight XXX to YYY. But I don't want to. Too bad.
ULCC: ACARS: Hey guys. WOULD YOU PLEASE operate XXX to YYY, and we will cancel your last day. Just deadhead back AND we will pay you an extra 4 days MUP. The captain made $1000 to fly one leg and be done the next day. I just stayed the the airport for a few hours and caught the first flight toward home.
3. REGIONAL: If scheduling calls you, and you answer, reserve, or line holder, you are on the hook.
ULCC: Scheduling calls you on a day off and OFFERS you a trip. They OFFER what they want to give you for it. You bargain with them. State your demands. They agree or they don't. If not, no harm, no foul, no hard feelings.
4. REGIONAL: On reserve and want to fly a day before your reserve period? Want to drop a reserve day? Want to be paid extra for a trip that operates over your reserve day? << LOL!
ULCC: See a trip in open time? You can't add a trip of course, but you can call and put your name in the hat. I recently had a trip that began the same day, but earlier than my show time. I was paid 6 extra hours for it, on top of guarantee. Junior assignments are optional, but if offered, pay 2X, and on top of guarantee.
Still on reserve here, but due to a transition conflict, my June schedule started with 10 days off. then 5 on, 5 off, 5 on, 5 off. That's 20 days off, and I'm being paid some goodies on top of guarantee.

5. I had 3 weeks off between initial training and IOE. Then one day my IOE schedule appeared. DURING SPRING BREAK! Travel to FLL IMPOSSIBLE via non-rev.
REGIONAL. PROBABLY would have told you get there or else. Just a guess.
ULCC. 20 minutes later I had an e-ticket in hand on an other carrier to get me to IOE paid for by the company. I'm just saying, YES, its a pay cut first year, but for guys who value QOL, the current contract is good, and I doubt much will be conceded next round.

I left a regional captain gig for Spirit and I haven't looked back. Most of the guys in my new hire class were regional captains as well. Yes the first year pay sucks and you're going to get into some CC debt to maintain any semblance of your regional captain lifestyle unless you have a good chunk of change saved up.

No it isn't Delta, United, or American and I was well aware of that coming into it but the QOL is night and day different compared to a regional. I'm home more on reserve than I was as a senior line holder at my old regional. The trips are easier, the legs are longer, the hotels are much nicer in better locations. There is a huge amount of soft pay available if you're willing to be flexible with scheduling and you can almost always manipulate your schedule to get whatever days off you need. There really is no comparison when comparing it to a regional. Now with all that being said there is still a huge amount of room for improvement with this contract we are negotiating. Especially in pay. And myself and everyone I fly with is demanding a contract that brings us up to our mainline and other airbus peers. So I do believe that it will get better in the future but until I see it I'll still have my applications out at the majors.

I'd rather be stuck here at Spirit if anything happens or I do anything stupid than at my old regional. But to each their own and everyone has their reasons.

I reckon that you all have a valid point. The QOL and earning potential at even the worst ULCC is much better than at any of the regionals. If a ULCC did call I would be tempted to jump ship out of the regionals. At this point in time despite what the hyperbole would have one believe, the legacies are still being rather picky about whom they want to hire.... Most of the regional CAs that I fly with have several LORs in, ample TPIC, volunteering and are not getting the call. Heck the LCA that I did my IOE with is not getting the call, WTH.

Another point. I stumble across so many airlines that were absorbed by / purchased by legacies and Southwest that I never knew existed.
You have a better chance of being purchase by a legacy (and never having to interview again!) if you are at a ULCC than if you are at a regional. It just happened at Virgin. A legacy simply won't buy a regional and add them to the seniority list when all they have to to is shift fly from a mature regional to one with a lower pilot cost. There are still hundreds of 50 seaters they want gone too.

However, I would not be surprised if a legacy purchased a ULCC before it got to big. They would get:

Close to 100 Airbus aircraft with average age of 5.6 years.
Orders for several more which could replace their aging mad dogs and 757s.
1500 typed Airbus pilots
An operation that they no longer have to compete against.
An operation that is the most profitable in the USA.
An operation with extensive international flying.
STRANGER things have happened.
I cannot predict the future, but I could see a ULCC merger, or a purchase by a legacy within the next 10 years.