Gee Whiz.......560 total hours and 50 multi. Be still my heart! How many of those are turbine?
It's no wonder myself or the family will ever non-rev on a Pinnacle.

I appologize to the vast majority of Pinnacle pilots out there, but 50 hours multi ( all in props I'll bet) is not enough time to let someone control my life in turbines.

Full well agree with that one.... I took me till the time I was 22.5 years old to get my first regional job (Mesa / AMW) I had 1500tt, over 200 multi, CFI and 135 experience and I still had to get a friend who was a CRJ CA at Mesa to go to PHX and physically pull mystuff out of the pile before I could even get an interview call.... Needless to say academy guys and low timers get no respect or pitty out of me... go CFI and fly 135 (or 134 and a half as the case may be) for a while and at least try to earn your job! Other than that quit whining you industry down dragging scum bags!

You make it sound as though they are jumping directly into the left seat. As if the academy guys and girls skip training and all other requirements? I would like to think those who don't fit are identified sooner or later.

Give me a break
 

Your telling me that you would have turned down the opportunity to sit right seat at a regional with 560/50? How can you say that some kid is dragging the industry down by simply accepting a job? I'll buy into the PFT guys not doing the industry any favors, but please, these guys were neither PFT or academy grads. I can also assure you that these guys all had their CFI tickets and had instructed to get about half that time (250/25).

WOW, I will avoid Pinnacle like my life depended on it, cause it does. Don't need 500 tt guys cuttin their teeth in a RJ with me in the back. The fact that they aren't the only pilots up front is of no comfort, its a 2 person crew only as strong as the weakest pilot. Sad.

Bring on NEWCO

Oh Im soooooo sorry for my previous remark... why what ever was I thinking I mean wow 250 hours and 25 of multi is a huge amount of instruction given I mean that must make you like qualified to be like the chief instructor of your 141 school or something. (and just in case you didnt notice Im being sarcastic) If you look at Nwairlink.com it says 1400 tt and 200 multi for everybody else..... And what 250 hours of dual given is what perhaps 5 pvt/comm/instr students and 1 multi student? sorry but thats not a whole lot of experience. Now lets look at this from a managment perspective (oh if I were the CEO for a day....) At this point I'm saying to myself I have these low time pilots who by all right full means should still be in the right seat of a 172 like all their other peirs telling people to watch their alt./ hdg. and begging not to be be smacked in... instead they have a nice plush right seat in my jet. So from my point of view since they are not a qualified as everyone else they are not yet professionals. SO they should just be greatful to have the right seat in my jet and why should I have to pay them? I guess I shouldn't and since I can discriminate amongst low and high time FO's I guess I will have to pay all FO's the same so I guess that means a CRAP pay scale for ALL FO's. WOW what a benefit for me..... guess I'll get that bonus this year.....

Food for thought... As for me Im glad I got atleast some real experience it has served me well.... and I hope others will either come to their senses and do the same or there will be a hard set of hiring minimums put into effect that will force them to do so........

Mr. Monkey, don't be sorry at all. I am not naive enough to think 250/25 hours is a whole lot of instruction. To be fair, Pinnacle came here and chose to hire those individguals; UND didn't pay them to make a trip out here, nor were they obligated too under any contracts or anything like that.

I'm glad your experiances have served you well, but if you really think that others will instruct (or whatever they are doing to build time) until they feel they have enough experiance to move on to the regionals, your only fooling yourself. Most are just there to build the minimum amount of time they need to move on (If Pinnacle wouldn't have picked up those few instructors, they would still be here sitting right seat in their little Warrior). It really falls on the airlines to hire the most experianced pilots out there, which was the point I intended to make-you can't blame the kid for taking the job offered to him, or turn him the scapegoat for your low pay. You never did answer my question - are your telling me that you would have turned down the opportunity to sit right seat at a regional with 560/50?

I posted this over in the majors forum but I think it is relevent here, and to answer your question JMT21-

I went to a four year college got my degree and my ratings and now I'm a lowly flight instructor putting in my dues, and while at times the jobs does suck I do relize I'm learning so much more than I could have ever have otherwise, and a long the way realizing how much I didn't know.

I can't believe people going through these direct to airline courses could feel like they should really have those jobs. I would feel guilty having peoples lives in my hands (at the helm of a RJ) and I have twice the hours of the people have coming out of these programs. I could probably get a regional job this summer but I want to instruct a year as a CFII to really get good at instrument flying.

How in the world could someone who has 50 hrs of instrument time have the knowledge to fly for an airline? I would not be able to look passengers in the eyes believing that I am qualified enough to have their lives in my hands.

I would also say this if you have enough money way of doing things now is really bringing down the whole pilot profession, it is no longer a profession it is more like being a welder, you go to a tech school for a couple of years get your license and a way you go. Not to mention its negative impacts on pay.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You make it sound as though they are jumping directly into the left seat. As if the academy guys and girls skip training and all other requirements? I would like to think those who don't fit are identified sooner or later"

Mesa doesn't even require a sim check on the interview for crying out loud, maybe its because they know their academy graduates can't pass it?

Better Instrument experience would be to go out and fly yourself into the clouds. Its not quite the same as an instructor. You do become more aware of the theroy type stuff but the practice is different. Think about it which is goin to be harder flying instruments of sitting there watching someone fly instruments. Yeah you gotta make sure you know whats goin on but its a lot different just sitting there.

Oh and the first thing youll lose as a double I is your scan. Woo I am payin the price for that now.

I'm not trying to argue with you that these low time guys are the answer or anything this is just some advice for flying since you said you wanted more instrument time.

Cowboy
 

To add on to what punkpilot said, if you have your CFII, you should already be really good at flying the instruments. I got nothing against paying your dues, as I already said, if Pinnacle hadn't chose hire those few, they would still be here doing just that.

Why shouldn't they really feel like they should have those jobs? They passed the interview, sim ride, written exam, and ATP written just like everyone else. They made it through 2 months of training like everyone else, will sit in reserve like everyone else, and will eventually hold the right seat like everyone else. They may be flying the aircraft, but the captain has the last word.

Which programs would these be that you speak of?

Your last sentence is almost incomprehensible, but I remember reading the thing about the welder when Skyhigh originally wrote it. I guess if the pilot or cowboy thing dosen't work out for, you can always fall back on that. I don't know what the hell you were trying to get across with the last part, as I already said: I buy into the PFT guys hurting the industry. Or is that just your signature?

This is how it goes: You hear Pinnacle is coming to town, you realize you have low time but figure what the the hell, I'll apply anyway, if they interview me it will be a great experience if not, not a big deal. Turns out they want to interview you, you pass the written, sim ride is no sweat, and the interview went well, great experience all around. Then you get a call several days later. They want you to come fly for them, in fact they tell you you'll be able to have msp as a base (you were born and raised there, and the girlfriend lives there too). You honestly would tell them thanks, but no thanks I don't feel I'm qualified enough? Give me a few hundred more hours in my 172 watching my student shoot approaches, then I'll be right over? Yes or no? If you turn down their offer, they shrug their shoulders and offer the job to the next low time guy on the list.

I'm really happy about you saving the industry and all, but it's those airline pilots who ***** and moan about low timers getting hired that have the ability change things. Tell management or the Union or whoever that your tired of sitting next to guys whose multi is still wet in their log books. Tell them to raise or stick firm to their mins. If I was offered a regional job at 560/50 I'd take it and run.

I don't have my CFII, so I have been a primary instructor this year and plan on doing CFII next year. I would say the actual flying part of instruments is the easiest, I would say flying is a really small part of instrument work. Most of instrument flying is regulations and procedures things you learn best by teaching it over and over again (and by the time it gets boring you know it).

That is why I'm not applying I don't feel I'm qualified. If I got offered a job yes it would be hard to turn down (well not at pinnacle that would be easy to turn down). The regionals I want to fly for aren't hiring people with 500/50, because those places are crap airlines (with few exceptions like express jet, but I don't know if they are hiring that low). And you may not understand but there are people in the world that have a set of beliefs and morals that they stand by, I dont think it is safe or right for people with 500 hrs to be flying turboprops and jets with peoples lives in there hands so I'm not going to do it. I don't see why you have to mock me for making a decision to do the right thing.

I'm saying that people being able to become airline pilots in 400 hours because mommy and daddy had enough money to send them to one of these programs is brining down the pilot profession. I'm not a welder what I'm saying is being a profession pilot has gone from a profession (where it requires years of training and studying and paying your dues) to the equivalant of being a welder, a couple years of school no practice and your ready to hit the skies.

Mesa saves the money on the interview sim and lets the training department weed out non-hackers. Ground School and the oral are pretty cheap, so they eliminate a few folks there, then when you go to sim training you have to prove your sh*t in the first 3-4 sessions...if you have trouble early on in the sim, you're gone. Mesa training is not easy, it is still part of the interview! I do understand that SKW training is more thorough, but not hard compared to Mesa (this is from folks who have done both recently). But SKW seems to do their weed out during the interview stages, and focus on training new hires.

The PFT types can USUALLY do the sim, because they have 40 hours of practice from school. Doesn't make them skilled or experienced pilots, but they are high-quality trained switch monkeys in that particular cockpit.

Cowboypilot-
Teaching instruments helps make sure you understand the regs and procedures pretty well....but if you don't know them well enough to teach them, you shouldnt be given the CFII in the first place. Someone who just finished studying 3 days straight for a checkride will typically know more details of the rules than someone who has been flying on and off over a year.

You allude to express jet, but what other regionals do you think are worth "holding out" for? What regionals would you turn down if they called today and said you have a job? (assuming you did great on the interview).

Not all pilots getting hired low time went to these flow through programs from ATP, RAA, ERAU, UND, (insert school/academy name here). I have met many from Part 61 FBO training also. It has been said before, but there are many fully capable 500hour pilots that can fully handle the training, job tasks, and succeed in the airline world. There are also a number of 1000+ hour pilots that can't do as well in training, but are given the opportunity because they have logged the hours. Hours alone does not make you a better pilot. Quality of time, Quality of training, varied experience, and motivation to self study all play into how well qualified a pilot is.

If these pilots were a danger, incompetent, or not ready for training, the airlines would not waste time and money to train them.

Instrument flying is hardest when you have to do your scan get the radios and apply the regs. (can I descend...why...why not? where are they taking me. what is going to happen next?) Its not knowing the regs it is applying them. You will see that when you get your students.

oh and express is hirring vigirously it seems right now. Yeah that includes 4 guys I know within the last 5 months or so that only had 600/100.

I was saying express jet is an exception of a good airline that I know is hiring low time pilots. Oh lets see mesa, great lakes, pinnacle are all pretty sad excuses for airlines. I want to fly for horizon or skywest, then AE or CoEx would be next on the list.

"can I descend...why...why not? where are they taking me. what is going to happen next"

I would say those are all procedures having to do nothing with flying the aircraft.

There is no flow through at UND. Never has been and probably never will be. There is no contracts, no obligations, nothing like that. UND offers what is essentially a crj ground school course followed by about 20 hours in the crj sim. Many of the regionals will lower their mins if you have taken those courses. Many of the regionals will also come here to interview because there is always a hand full of qualified flight instructors (UND employs over 200) looking to move on.

Oh man, I'm never flying Express Jet. How could you accept that job, your so unqualified? :rolleyes: Really though, congrats and best of luck to you.

flow through or not......reduced mins is what we are talking about here.... I would venture to say that a lot of the regionals have picked people up that are below what the website says.... most published mins are 1000/100 or higher. Some state 1500/200 or even 300 multi.

Cowboy....
Great choices on airlines.... :rolleyes: But what are you gonna do when you dont know anyone at those places or cant get hired? What will you do if these places dont grow or worse yet shrink in 2 years when you are "qualified"? Its great to have standards and stick to them, but you are also limiting yourself. Options that you turn down are a little nicer than waiting for something you can't get....just a thought.

A lot of the issues you may see at some regionals are typically common throughout the industry but to varying degrees.....To a point, a regional is a regional now a days....

One of my favorite quotes, I don't remember who it was on here that said it:

'Fighting over which regional is better, is like homeless people fighting over whose box is better.'

Absolutly beautiful!

Sounds like something Skyhigh would say/write...


-LA

yeah probably Skyhigh or killbill

Which is to say airlines like MESA can do some damage to your career.

Suppose you are not current. If you go to an airline that does most of the elimination at the interview (read sim check involved) then you obviously don't pass the interview. From that point on, nobody knows or cares to know why you didn't get hired. You, on the other hand, learn your lesson and try again.

If however the culture is to weed out people mostly during training then washing out of training can be damaging to your career.

Ohhh great I just applied to MESA:eek:

Well, you'll most likely be ok. The overwhelming majority still makes it through training. It's just not 99%. Does anybody know what percentage actually washes out of MESA training?

Hello All...

This is my first comment on this site... in fact, I haven't even taken my very first lesson to become a pilot yet. I always dreamed of flying jets for the military, but my eyesight wasn't up to par. I thought that would be the only way I could ever be a jet pilot. Life started, marriage, children (4) and a career... but, I never stopped looking into the sky every time a jet flew by, or any other plane for that matter. Now my children are in high school, the oldest is on his way to college and I am considering a career change.

I have been reading these forums for a couple of weeks now to get an idea of what I am in for in this industry. I plan to attend ATP for all of my training from PVT all the way through to CFII and CRJ training. No... Mommy and Daddy won't be paying my way, I will. This forum thread has been very interesting to me and I have a question for any of you military jet jockey's out there.

Don't the Air Force and the Navy and the Marines all take very young pilots with very little experience and put them behind the controls of $50 to $180 million dollar high performance jets? In fact, not only do they do that, but many of those jets don't even have another pilot on board to help when things get a little crazy.

Granted, they don't have 40 to 70 lives on board with them, but the point remains.

Furthermore, I have read many posts around this site where people have complained about their responsibilities as a FO... basically that they are mindless "go-fors" for their CA's. Do this, do that, don't do this or that...

It is up to the FAA to set the limits on what is acceptable levels of experience for a commercial airline pilot holding an ATP license. And it is up to the management and the investors who own airlines to make sure they don't expose themselves to lawsuits that could bankrupt the company by employing grossly underqualified pilots.

This is a market economy in America... it is what has made our country great. The laws of supply and demand are still alive and well. It is not young pilots that are driving wages down in the airline industry... it is the passengers who shop the internet for the least expensive way to get from point A to point B. They don't care if they are flying with 39 other people on a plane or with 239 other people... They don't care if the airline serves peanuts or caviar. They simply want the least expensive way to travel.

Just look at Wal-Mart. They broke all the "rules" of general stores and have changed the entire industry forever. Ask yourself this question... Do you shop at Wal-Mart or at the local general store that has a fraction of the selection and at twice the price level just so the owner of that store can continue to take home a sizable income?

As for me, I will be expediting my training as quickly as I can. I will teach and I will apply for positions. I hope to get hired by a regional as quickly as I can and I will soak up as much experience as I can as quickly as I can. We all know that the only time that matters is PIC time when it comes to getting a job where life is more enjoyable and more lucrative. I want that PIC time wherever I am able to earn it.

[QUOTE=Preacher]Hello All...

"This is my first comment on this site... in fact, I haven't even taken my very first lesson to become a pilot yet. I always dreamed of flying jets for the military, but my eyesight wasn't up to par. I thought that would be the only way I could ever be a jet pilot. Life started, marriage, children (4) and a career... but, I never stopped looking into the sky every time a jet flew by, or any other plane for that matter. Now my children are in high school, the oldest is on his way to college and I am considering a career change."



Great...Another PFT who wants a $20k a year job and will have spent
$80K....with college looming for his kids.....what a country.....Go read "Flying The Line" and "Flying The Line Vol II", both by George E. Hopkins.

PS - I wonder how he'd do AFTER a ground stop at EWR or LGA when things get "fun"?

"Don't the Air Force and the Navy and the Marines all take very young pilots with very little experience and put them behind the controls of..."

The arugument has been made before. The counter is that the military has much higher standards in screening and training pilots than Mesa PDP or even Flight Safety direct track. At ATP, you'll have a chance to get your CFI ratings and instruct for a time before you move on to the regionals. This is valuable experience that sets you apart from the 250 hour ab initio guy.

I just don't think you can compare a 250 hour military guy to a 250 hour ab initio civillian guy. Two different leagues.

Totally agree with de727ups. In the military (USAF), you are flying in wingtip formation, in jets, solo, after 4 months of walking through the front gate of pilot training. I highly doubt that anyone going to ATP will be doing that in 4 months of starting pilot
training..... At ATP, a monkey can learn to fly a plane. All you need is time and $.

Well, it's awfully nice of you to stop by and spend the time educating us...

Preacher
 

Good for you. I have done the same all my life as well. The only difference is that I have one son; a 22 month old. I hope to start my training soon, too. I may have a few more hurdles to get over than you so as to getting hired by the regionals or any airline for that matter. (NO COMMENTS sgrd0q)--LOL!

However, as the ole saying goes, "If you wanna walk on the water, you've gotta step outta the boat.";)

Wow! You certainly seem to have things figured out. Check back in with me in 5 years after you have walked even 1/4 mile in my shoes and let me know what you think.

If you have to be "of good morale character" to hold an ATP why can't you guys practice that here? If you disagree with someone why don't you state why you feel he is wrong instead of trying to gang up on him. Obviously he doesn't know what you know....but do you know what he does? Maybe he has a better idea, maybe not. Come on guys if we can't get along how do you plan to "fix" what we are all complaining about?

RealityCheck...

This may be a reality check for you... Every airline is facing the pressure of current market conditions. Any airline that is paying above what the market will bear is destined for the bankrupcy courts. That is simply the reality of a market economy. Maybe you would rather that the industry return to protectionist regulation rather than allow the market to determine wage and benefit levels. Take a look at this article in the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031900425.html.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics over 50% of the pilots employed by part-121 US airline companies will be retiring within the next 10 years. If the mandatory age is extended at all it will only by by 2 to 5 years max. That means that nearly 38,000 pilots will need to be replaced over the next 10 to 15 years. Even if you take all of the pilots from the military, there will not be enough to fill the void. Can anyone say "outsourcing"? It won't take long for the airlines to start lobbying Congress to allow work visas for Indian pilots to come over here and fill the void. Kind of like the technology industry.

I have been a stock broker and financial advisor for many years. I am not going into the airline industry to have a sweet job working 8 to 14 days a month and make $200G a year. I am going into the airline industry because I love flying... even as a passenger. It will be a great joy to sit on the nose of such an amazing machine and launch skyward day after day.

Someone once said "Get a job doing what you truly love to do and you will never work a day in your life." I look forward to the day when I start getting paid to do what I have dreamed of my entire life.

that is sad, what else can we say Preacher

Don't be so ignorant. In due time you will see your love of flying fade. Flying is a job, don't be mistaken.

I don't believe we will have to bring in foreign pilots, well first because foreign airlines recruit American pilots because they simply don't have the infastructure to train pilots in mass numbers like we do, second there are a lot of young pilots out their right now (one of the reasons many say pay is so low at regionals, there is such a supply) that will be ready to fill the void (including myself:D )

What does this mean? better pay in the future for airline pilots and shorter times to get to the majors. A lot of pilots I have talked to say this is probably they best time in the history of aviation to be 23 and getting on with a regional, more thank likely people in my generation will be getting on with the majors before they are thirty.

As much as everyone likes to complain around here we need to look at the bright side of the current situation and realize there are some good things to look forward too!

Of course this also means it is a bad time to be in your late 50's with pensions going and pay at a low point.

The good news is that when all these retirements begin there will be upward pressure on the wages and benefits to get pilots on board. There will be a "seller's market". Supply and demand. Relatively constant supply of available jobs with a declining pool of available pilots. Large demand... short supply. Market forces work every time.

Don't underestimate the ingenuity of the Indians and the Chinese. They can set up training facilities very, very quickly. Especially China. They will throw government money at opportunities and make it happen like yesterday. :eek:

Why would they do that?? Take a look at Mexico... That country's second largest "industry" is money being sent home from workers in the USA. Also, the base country can tax the income of their expatriates at a very high level... much more than what they would collect if their people stay at home. :mad:

Gotta love the global economy.

sgrd0q remains mum and looks away unwittingly while whistling a tune!

It is highly unlikely that there will ever be a pilot shortage at the majors. Regionals maybe, if their pay keeps going to sh*t and this microjet thing really takes off.

The US is unique pilot-wise in that we have a vast general aviation infrastructure that can rapidly produce CFIs in 6-8 months who become entry-level airline pilots in 1-2 years. This system has always been able to fill the void (minimums vary between 500 and 10,000 depending on the demand). No other nation has GA the way we do (the Aussies have a fair bit owing to geography). Light airplane ownership and operation is regulated and taxed to the point of non-existence in most of the world.

Many foriegn nations (including China & India) send their military and/or civilian pilot trainees to the US to participate in our GA system. You simply cannot gain operational experience in most other places.

The concept of bringing in wholesale quantities of foriegn pilots is ludicrous...congress wouldn't go for it on security issues alone, not to mention union and public perception. And even if you did, since most of them would be trained here anyway, they would quickly become americanized...they won't work for $1.25/h for long when they realize that their mortgage payment is $2,500.00/month.

The only realistic foriegn threat is cabotage, where a foriegn vessel or aircraft can provide US domestic service. This is actually illegal, and not likely to change soon (again, security & political issues).

I can understand your willingness to take an opportunity to do something that you have always wanted to, but don't come in with the attitude that you're going get it by taking shortcuts and undercutting the livelihoods of people who have worked for it and have familys to feed. That sort of individual is generally despised in this industry...you won't be welcome.