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Republic seeks 1500 hour exemption

Old 05-11-2022, 06:08 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by brewpilot View Post
Ms Shaw had 1,470. While I agree the crash was tragic I still don’t think the 1,500 hour rule helps keep us safer. Someone gets hired with 700 hours and needs to get to 2,500 to upgrade. That 1,800 hours flying in the right seat with a qualified, experienced captain is more valuable imo before upgrade than a 1,500 hour pilot in a 172 etc with only 1,000 sic before upgrade. Thousands of pilots made it before the rule. I even feel the newer guys coming onboard are forgetting how to actually be pilots. Stick and rudder is fading. I witness it first hand. People either cut it or don’t when it comes to being a pilot. Just my opinion.
Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the facts. Just look at the dramatic increase in Part 121 safety since the rule came into effect compared to the marginal increases, if any, the rest of the world has seen who haven't changed their requirements in decades.

You don't fix something that isn't broken. The ATP rule will stay for now, sorry.
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Old 05-11-2022, 06:41 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
Today we are making about 2 new ATPs for every retiring airline pilot. Emerald Coast still has plenty of people paying to get a leg up in competitive interviews. Job fairs are still being attended by pilots trying to get some edge to gain consideration for their jobs. Companies are still getting people to pay money just to sit in the right seat of single pilot airplanes on freight flights.

There are qualified pilots out there. A particular job just has to be appealing enough to recruit and retain those pilots.

The 1500hr rule along with Pt.117 came about to increase safety of the flying public. We are measurably safer as a result. At my company, where corners were cut and processes evaded, we crashed a 767.

Standards get cut at our own peril. Say what people may about quality of training, ultimately what's being proposed is a reduction in standards.
I'm pro-union and all, and I get that ALPA's goal is to get rid of the regional model altogether (which was 100% built on taking advantage of pilots), but some of this is misleading. There is definitely a pilot shortage. If "we are making 2 new ATPs for every retiring pilot," then that's an unsustainable blip on the radar. The regionals are enjoying a short-term backlog of 1,500-hour recruits from COVID, but that reservoir will dry up quickly. I don't know if it'll be next week, next month, or next year, but it'll happen, most likely before any of us can change our career strategies. Even before COVID, the regionals would hire anyone who met the legal bare minimum because pilot supply/demand had driven them to the lowest legal standards. There're a lot of bottlenecks that the new generation of pilots face on the road to 1,500 hours that we didn't have to worry about. Most notably, the 'civilian pipeline' to 1500 hours needs to quadruple to meet retirements, but I don't see the low-time commercial jobs quadrupling, so now a bunch of pilots with a ton of training debt will be stuck fighting for table scrap jobs to get from 250-1500 hours, most likely being unemployed for years, with a highly perishable skill. It's great we already climbed the golden ladder, but it's also screwed up to pull it up behind ourselves, and I see a lot of the "there's no pilot shortage" talk as misinformation contributing to that.

Being realistic, the 1,500-hour rule was just one of many enacted as a result of Colgan. Pt 117, cockpit culture (CRM, TEM, etc), and additional FAA-mandated training (EET, ATP-CTP, etc) created a safer environment, but if I'm being honest, I think a high-quality training dept at your first 121 operator goes much further toward safety than the 1,500-hour requirement. I've seen some pretty wild stuff from 1,500-hour pilots, who were probably good at flying a Cessna barefoot in uncontrolled airspace, but that doesn't transfer much to a 121 job. As soon as medium-sized cities start losing or getting reduced service and ticket prices go up significantly, Congressmen will start digging, find this to be true (or easy to argue), and switch sides. I see the writing on the wall, and whereas there should be a limit that's higher than 250, I think 1,500 hours across all airframes is arbitrary and overkill. I think we should be advocating for a realistic solution that also keeps safety in mind. Maybe jet experience counts as triple. twin experience counts as double, time flying in controlled airspace or IFR gets a time bonus, etc, to incentivize flying that builds experience instead of doing the same power-on stalls in the Class E practice area. Also, if the FAA mandated more specialized training requirements for airlines hiring first-time 121 operators, like what LIFT is talking about, that would probably contribute quite a lot to the safety of 121.
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Old 05-11-2022, 06:47 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog View Post
Well, so does UPT. But this is the cost for aircraft time ALONE:


370k for T-6, 469k for T-1, 1.2M for T-38 per the latest RAND study. Not to mention it is a full time job for a year. And ~15% of each graduating class is sent on to instructor school to be instructors for the next three years classes.

No way in hell is the LIFT academy anything near the equivalent.
The 750-hour requirement for military is also just an arbitrary line, and kind of ridiculous, considering the real-world ops they normally do. Military pilots do more complicated missions, fly less often, do most of their own mission planning, and do the equivalent of 121 flag operations with less than 300 hours total time, often with aircraft commanders who may not even qualify for an r-ATP.
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Old 05-11-2022, 08:14 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Duffman View Post
The 750-hour requirement for military is also just an arbitrary line, and kind of ridiculous, considering the real-world ops they normally do. Military pilots do more complicated missions, fly less often, do most of their own mission planning, and do the equivalent of 121 flag operations with less than 300 hours total time, often with aircraft commanders who may not even qualify for an r-ATP.
I agree with you. Just for conversation purposes, I checked my military logbook, I made aircraft commander with a little over 600 hours. It took 2 years of full time flight training to make me a pilot, zero to hero (no prior experience before primary training). Accelerated training is possible but it would be VERY difficult to pull off anything close to a military training program. This isn't a reflection on people's ability so much as it is on the infrastructure of said training program and the fact that civilian students won't be military officers who are already type A, know how to study, and come with built-in leadership skills. Recruiting the very best instructors would require paying a hell of a lot more than $35 an hour which is close to the average in the US. I'd love to instruct but I don't think I'd ever do it again for less than $90 an hour.

I worked at 2 different 141 schools (one independent, one university connected). What I saw was very green instructors doing the bare minimum for their students. The blind leading the blind so to speak. (I mean, I get it, you aren't paid for all the extra **** you do so you're trying to minimize your unpaid labor- which is a big reason instructors should be SALARIED instead of hourly). There was less oversight than there should have been as well. Yes, there was an FAA approved syllabus but for the most part the instructors did whatever they wanted to do and then filled out the paperwork "as necessary" to get the students through the program. I worked with remediating some instrument students that couldn't fly a simple S-pattern without losing 500 feet or more. Instructors had started them flying approaches before they even had basic instrument skills in an effort to rush them through in the allotted time (I assure you the syllabus was NOT written like this!). In my military training program we had seasoned aircraft commanders teaching us with no less than 4 years of "fleet" experience out flying missions. I'm aware that not every service does this, some push newly winged Lieutenants into teaching billets but still there's little comparison. Airlines will streamline their school and keep it to the bare minimum to fill seats, there's little incentive to pad training hours to make a better pilot.

Interestingly, my "fleet" aircraft transition was longer than my 121 training. I spent about 6 months of my training learning my final military aircraft (even then, your syllabus isn't complete as you do the remainder of your training on the job), compared to barely 3 months in 121. I got over 20 hours of sim time and 40 hours in the actual aircraft before reporting to my fleet squadron. 121 training IMO really is the bare minimum to transition someone to jets, which explains the high fail and washout rates. I don't see that changing anytime soon though because $$$.
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Old 05-11-2022, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LoneStar32 View Post
The fact that you think that is what a CFI does causes me to think the ATP rule was targeted for people like you.
So....can you answer the question or not? I know exactly what a CFI does. Having over 1000 hours dual given and 100% pass rate. I stand by my statement...my 5000th lap around the pattern in a non-controlled single runway airport out in flat land country is no different than my 4999th...I learned more in 3 hours riding in the right seat of a single pilot Citation (time that I cannot log) than I did in the last half of my time flight instructing...I will admit that the first 300 or so hours of dual given were good...it gave me the ability to stand back and see the mistakes that people were making, figure out why they were making them, and increase my own basic flying skills, but I know plenty of guys who have had the opportunity to get real world experience in more complex aircraft where they would gain more actual experience, but they can't because they cannot log the time and have to keep their poverty level job grinding it out in a 172 to build up to the completely irrational 1500 hour limit...Not all hours are the same...Just admit the current system is stupid and completely inefficient...just like everything the government does
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Old 05-11-2022, 08:38 AM
  #16  
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The requirement for an FO to have an ATP prior to working for a 121 air carrier is the best thing that ever happened to our industry. Please stop trying to take that away. There is ONLY one reason management, not the pilot or union, wants to lower that standard, and that is because they want to lower our salaries. NOTHING else.
Did this requirement help? Of course, it did, we have had a much safer environment, did it help with salary, definitely, a pilot pre 2014 was making 12-16$/h living on food stamps.
And management are getting really excited to find themself using this perceived lack of pilots as an excuse to lower that standard.
Do you honestly think any airline would lower their standards to sub 1500 if the government said, "Fine, we will let you lower it to 1000hour if you increase everyones salary by 50% and add a year to year inflation match +5% for the next 50 years..."
Anyone who is training today to be an airline pilot will have plenty of years to work to make up for that extra year or two you had to work as a CFI, banner or pipeline pilot. Some guys come to the regionals in their low 20s, having over 40 years of their career remaining and you are stressing over a few hours. Take a chill, relax and enjoy your life before "Crew Support" gets hold of you...
Any and all pilots should fight for this to stand!!!
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Old 05-11-2022, 08:59 AM
  #17  
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not surprised at all that Bedford and Co. want to be at the forefront of lowering standards, sacrificing safety, pay, and QOL
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Old 05-11-2022, 10:24 AM
  #18  
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Why are some of you so about lowering the time/eligibility to fly as an FO for an airline? You do realize that regardless if it's dumb or not to fly a pattern 5000 times that you can kiss any sort of QOL goodbye and forget about your pay staying where it is or ever going higher. The reason regional airlines are forced to improve is to attract people that have the time to go work there. If they all of a sudden get flooded with people that have 750TT your negotiating power will go to 0 instantly.
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Old 05-11-2022, 10:40 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by planejoe View Post
Why are some of you so about lowering the time/eligibility to fly as an FO for an airline? You do realize that regardless if it's dumb or not to fly a pattern 5000 times that you can kiss any sort of QOL goodbye and forget about your pay staying where it is or ever going higher. The reason regional airlines are forced to improve is to attract people that have the time to go work there. If they all of a sudden get flooded with people that have 750TT your negotiating power will go to 0 instantly.
This right here... Watch what is going on in the rest of the world, they have P2F schemes. You will wake up one day and have to pay 50K$ to get a job, then that job is only a contract job, so you can be let go whenever they want to and by doing that they will have to force you to pay for your own recurrent... Don't believe, join some European pilot groups and watch their pain...
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:27 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by planejoe View Post
Why are some of you so about lowering the time/eligibility to fly as an FO for an airline? You do realize that regardless if it's dumb or not to fly a pattern 5000 times that you can kiss any sort of QOL goodbye and forget about your pay staying where it is or ever going higher. The reason regional airlines are forced to improve is to attract people that have the time to go work there. If they all of a sudden get flooded with people that have 750TT your negotiating power will go to 0 instantly.
Quoted for truth/agreement

A couple quick takes...
Most politicians, and I am including political appointees/gov employees, are always in hyper CYA mode. (unless of course there's enough money for them in the issue). Nobody wants to be the one to put an okay on removing the rule, what happens when (god forbid) an accident happens in 121 after that rule relaxation where one of the pilots has 500 hours? That person takes credit for that.

I'm guessing the "Colgan Families" are still watching and lobbying as well.

I could easily see where the brass were sitting around at a meeting lamenting the situation and someone said, "hey, we have other exemptions, has anyone asked for an exemption on this yet? No, let's give it a go and see what happens." In their shoes, given the priority of moving the metal and making money, why not? Worse thing that can happen is the FAA says "no", which my guess says is exactly what's going to happen. ...but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong....today...
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