Republic seeks 1500 hour exemption
#11
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Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,277
Ms Shaw had 1,470. While I agree the crash was tragic I still don’t think the 1,500 hour rule helps keep us safer. Someone gets hired with 700 hours and needs to get to 2,500 to upgrade. That 1,800 hours flying in the right seat with a qualified, experienced captain is more valuable imo before upgrade than a 1,500 hour pilot in a 172 etc with only 1,000 sic before upgrade. Thousands of pilots made it before the rule. I even feel the newer guys coming onboard are forgetting how to actually be pilots. Stick and rudder is fading. I witness it first hand. People either cut it or don’t when it comes to being a pilot. Just my opinion.
You don't fix something that isn't broken. The ATP rule will stay for now, sorry.
#12
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 644
Today we are making about 2 new ATPs for every retiring airline pilot. Emerald Coast still has plenty of people paying to get a leg up in competitive interviews. Job fairs are still being attended by pilots trying to get some edge to gain consideration for their jobs. Companies are still getting people to pay money just to sit in the right seat of single pilot airplanes on freight flights.
There are qualified pilots out there. A particular job just has to be appealing enough to recruit and retain those pilots.
The 1500hr rule along with Pt.117 came about to increase safety of the flying public. We are measurably safer as a result. At my company, where corners were cut and processes evaded, we crashed a 767.
Standards get cut at our own peril. Say what people may about quality of training, ultimately what's being proposed is a reduction in standards.
There are qualified pilots out there. A particular job just has to be appealing enough to recruit and retain those pilots.
The 1500hr rule along with Pt.117 came about to increase safety of the flying public. We are measurably safer as a result. At my company, where corners were cut and processes evaded, we crashed a 767.
Standards get cut at our own peril. Say what people may about quality of training, ultimately what's being proposed is a reduction in standards.
Being realistic, the 1,500-hour rule was just one of many enacted as a result of Colgan. Pt 117, cockpit culture (CRM, TEM, etc), and additional FAA-mandated training (EET, ATP-CTP, etc) created a safer environment, but if I'm being honest, I think a high-quality training dept at your first 121 operator goes much further toward safety than the 1,500-hour requirement. I've seen some pretty wild stuff from 1,500-hour pilots, who were probably good at flying a Cessna barefoot in uncontrolled airspace, but that doesn't transfer much to a 121 job. As soon as medium-sized cities start losing or getting reduced service and ticket prices go up significantly, Congressmen will start digging, find this to be true (or easy to argue), and switch sides. I see the writing on the wall, and whereas there should be a limit that's higher than 250, I think 1,500 hours across all airframes is arbitrary and overkill. I think we should be advocating for a realistic solution that also keeps safety in mind. Maybe jet experience counts as triple. twin experience counts as double, time flying in controlled airspace or IFR gets a time bonus, etc, to incentivize flying that builds experience instead of doing the same power-on stalls in the Class E practice area. Also, if the FAA mandated more specialized training requirements for airlines hiring first-time 121 operators, like what LIFT is talking about, that would probably contribute quite a lot to the safety of 121.
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 644
Well, so does UPT. But this is the cost for aircraft time ALONE:
370k for T-6, 469k for T-1, 1.2M for T-38 per the latest RAND study. Not to mention it is a full time job for a year. And ~15% of each graduating class is sent on to instructor school to be instructors for the next three years classes.
No way in hell is the LIFT academy anything near the equivalent.
370k for T-6, 469k for T-1, 1.2M for T-38 per the latest RAND study. Not to mention it is a full time job for a year. And ~15% of each graduating class is sent on to instructor school to be instructors for the next three years classes.
No way in hell is the LIFT academy anything near the equivalent.
#14
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Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
The 750-hour requirement for military is also just an arbitrary line, and kind of ridiculous, considering the real-world ops they normally do. Military pilots do more complicated missions, fly less often, do most of their own mission planning, and do the equivalent of 121 flag operations with less than 300 hours total time, often with aircraft commanders who may not even qualify for an r-ATP.
I worked at 2 different 141 schools (one independent, one university connected). What I saw was very green instructors doing the bare minimum for their students. The blind leading the blind so to speak. (I mean, I get it, you aren't paid for all the extra **** you do so you're trying to minimize your unpaid labor- which is a big reason instructors should be SALARIED instead of hourly). There was less oversight than there should have been as well. Yes, there was an FAA approved syllabus but for the most part the instructors did whatever they wanted to do and then filled out the paperwork "as necessary" to get the students through the program. I worked with remediating some instrument students that couldn't fly a simple S-pattern without losing 500 feet or more. Instructors had started them flying approaches before they even had basic instrument skills in an effort to rush them through in the allotted time (I assure you the syllabus was NOT written like this!). In my military training program we had seasoned aircraft commanders teaching us with no less than 4 years of "fleet" experience out flying missions. I'm aware that not every service does this, some push newly winged Lieutenants into teaching billets but still there's little comparison. Airlines will streamline their school and keep it to the bare minimum to fill seats, there's little incentive to pad training hours to make a better pilot.
Interestingly, my "fleet" aircraft transition was longer than my 121 training. I spent about 6 months of my training learning my final military aircraft (even then, your syllabus isn't complete as you do the remainder of your training on the job), compared to barely 3 months in 121. I got over 20 hours of sim time and 40 hours in the actual aircraft before reporting to my fleet squadron. 121 training IMO really is the bare minimum to transition someone to jets, which explains the high fail and washout rates. I don't see that changing anytime soon though because $$$.
#15
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Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 100
So....can you answer the question or not? I know exactly what a CFI does. Having over 1000 hours dual given and 100% pass rate. I stand by my statement...my 5000th lap around the pattern in a non-controlled single runway airport out in flat land country is no different than my 4999th...I learned more in 3 hours riding in the right seat of a single pilot Citation (time that I cannot log) than I did in the last half of my time flight instructing...I will admit that the first 300 or so hours of dual given were good...it gave me the ability to stand back and see the mistakes that people were making, figure out why they were making them, and increase my own basic flying skills, but I know plenty of guys who have had the opportunity to get real world experience in more complex aircraft where they would gain more actual experience, but they can't because they cannot log the time and have to keep their poverty level job grinding it out in a 172 to build up to the completely irrational 1500 hour limit...Not all hours are the same...Just admit the current system is stupid and completely inefficient...just like everything the government does
#16
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: B747 FO
Posts: 606
The requirement for an FO to have an ATP prior to working for a 121 air carrier is the best thing that ever happened to our industry. Please stop trying to take that away. There is ONLY one reason management, not the pilot or union, wants to lower that standard, and that is because they want to lower our salaries. NOTHING else.
Did this requirement help? Of course, it did, we have had a much safer environment, did it help with salary, definitely, a pilot pre 2014 was making 12-16$/h living on food stamps.
And management are getting really excited to find themself using this perceived lack of pilots as an excuse to lower that standard.
Do you honestly think any airline would lower their standards to sub 1500 if the government said, "Fine, we will let you lower it to 1000hour if you increase everyones salary by 50% and add a year to year inflation match +5% for the next 50 years..."
Anyone who is training today to be an airline pilot will have plenty of years to work to make up for that extra year or two you had to work as a CFI, banner or pipeline pilot. Some guys come to the regionals in their low 20s, having over 40 years of their career remaining and you are stressing over a few hours. Take a chill, relax and enjoy your life before "Crew Support" gets hold of you...
Any and all pilots should fight for this to stand!!!
Did this requirement help? Of course, it did, we have had a much safer environment, did it help with salary, definitely, a pilot pre 2014 was making 12-16$/h living on food stamps.
And management are getting really excited to find themself using this perceived lack of pilots as an excuse to lower that standard.
Do you honestly think any airline would lower their standards to sub 1500 if the government said, "Fine, we will let you lower it to 1000hour if you increase everyones salary by 50% and add a year to year inflation match +5% for the next 50 years..."
Anyone who is training today to be an airline pilot will have plenty of years to work to make up for that extra year or two you had to work as a CFI, banner or pipeline pilot. Some guys come to the regionals in their low 20s, having over 40 years of their career remaining and you are stressing over a few hours. Take a chill, relax and enjoy your life before "Crew Support" gets hold of you...
Any and all pilots should fight for this to stand!!!
#18
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Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 420
Why are some of you so about lowering the time/eligibility to fly as an FO for an airline? You do realize that regardless if it's dumb or not to fly a pattern 5000 times that you can kiss any sort of QOL goodbye and forget about your pay staying where it is or ever going higher. The reason regional airlines are forced to improve is to attract people that have the time to go work there. If they all of a sudden get flooded with people that have 750TT your negotiating power will go to 0 instantly.
#19
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: B747 FO
Posts: 606
Why are some of you so about lowering the time/eligibility to fly as an FO for an airline? You do realize that regardless if it's dumb or not to fly a pattern 5000 times that you can kiss any sort of QOL goodbye and forget about your pay staying where it is or ever going higher. The reason regional airlines are forced to improve is to attract people that have the time to go work there. If they all of a sudden get flooded with people that have 750TT your negotiating power will go to 0 instantly.
#20
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Joined APC: Feb 2017
Position: ERJ-170
Posts: 519
Why are some of you so about lowering the time/eligibility to fly as an FO for an airline? You do realize that regardless if it's dumb or not to fly a pattern 5000 times that you can kiss any sort of QOL goodbye and forget about your pay staying where it is or ever going higher. The reason regional airlines are forced to improve is to attract people that have the time to go work there. If they all of a sudden get flooded with people that have 750TT your negotiating power will go to 0 instantly.
A couple quick takes...
Most politicians, and I am including political appointees/gov employees, are always in hyper CYA mode. (unless of course there's enough money for them in the issue). Nobody wants to be the one to put an okay on removing the rule, what happens when (god forbid) an accident happens in 121 after that rule relaxation where one of the pilots has 500 hours? That person takes credit for that.
I'm guessing the "Colgan Families" are still watching and lobbying as well.
I could easily see where the brass were sitting around at a meeting lamenting the situation and someone said, "hey, we have other exemptions, has anyone asked for an exemption on this yet? No, let's give it a go and see what happens." In their shoes, given the priority of moving the metal and making money, why not? Worse thing that can happen is the FAA says "no", which my guess says is exactly what's going to happen. ...but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong....today...
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