aeroengineer

Got the first 2.....not the 3rd reference..LOL .I'm assuming you are or were an instructor and I admit I like the way you think. I've had more than one instructor with the my way or the highway mentality on stalls and it can be frustrating trying to keep them happy.

JohnBurke

Colgan happened due to a crew that was distracted with external conversation, that didn't respond as a crew, that made the opposite corrections necessary, that began 22 knots above stall (giving ample time to act and prevent), that involved a first officer acting on her own to raise flaps uncommanded, and a captain that kept pitching up in response to a stall, two crew which made no reference to or verbalization of airspeed, and particularly a pilot with a long history of checkride and training failures.

Crew rest...the captain had been in base for 3 days, and the FO had arrived more than 12 hours prior, contrary to popular myth.

Fatigued? No. **** poor piloting? Very much so. The lessons learned, which needed to be applied, were ones that should have been firmly cemented in the formative period early in their careers. The divide between a wet commercial and an ATP isn't great, but it covers a period when many fledgling aviators are at their riskiest, and when a great deal of the learning which forms the judgement base for future years is had. It's not merely a matter of a few hours of 172 time, and it's a ridiculous assumption that all pilots arrive for their ATP with only 172 time.

It's far too easy to say that the captain who got three days rest prior to the trip, and who failed multiple certification rides and proficiency checks, and bought his job in a pay to play program where money overrode skill and demonstrated ability, was fatigued. Fatigue was not the overriding factor. It was deficient piloting skills. It was a crew that acted independently, and both contrary to that necessary to do the most basic thing a pilot must do: fly the airplane.

Raising the entry level requirement to ATP minimums is hardly a bad move. Requiring an airline applicant to at least be qualified for an airline transport pilot certificate ought not be a surprise. Or anything that should be railed against. There are numerous factors that have resulted in the lowest mishap rate since jet aircraft entered service, but it would be incongruous to suggest that increasing the base experience level is not one of those factors. Changes to training, improved safety programs and oversight, and numerous other aspects play a part, but so does an increased focus on pilot experience and qualification which is far more than a few extra hours in a 172.

SonicFlyer

That's a problem with training, not experience.

tomgoodman

Experience is a form of training which schools cannot provide, but some pilots don't realize that until they have a great deal of it.

Rama

One thing experience provides is non-normal situations, equipment failures, severe weather and a multitude of other events that happen on line.
Experience exposes pilots to abnormal events in which they need to react to by training, common sense, and maybe thinking outside of the box and other factors to bring about a positive outcome.
Sully is a prime example of this.

JohnBurke

Quite so.

Training is one thing. Judgement is another.

Flyhayes

In addition, raising the requirements to 1500 hours gives the industry more time in which a pilot with poor skills/judgement/personality can get weeded out prior to flying the great unwashed masses around.
Imagine if the German Wings guy had more hoops to jump through before....

rickair7777

Yes, the real world can screen for issues which are hard to test for.

100LL

You know what could improve safety even more than an hour requirement and some training? Previous flying experience other than tooling around in a 172 for 1500 hrs or instructing. I'm talking about part 135 flight time especially single pilot turbine. Part 135 pilots who have done their job for a minimum of at least a year bring invaluable experience that can't be gained by instructing, or going to ERAU. We are talking hard IFR flying, night experience, icing and thunderstorms just to name a few all while acting as PIC alone. Introduce incentives for the regional airlines to hire pilots with prior 135 time. its my opinion they should be allowed to start higher up in the pay scale since they come with valuable experience unlike a 172 CFI doing steep turns day after day. Not asking for a bonus...they are as useless as per diem.

TheWeatherman

And you also bring along all the bad habits you picked up part 135 flying. Start out at more pay??? For what? Get over yourself. Lol, has to be one of the most ridiculous posts in this thread.