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Old 05-17-2017, 09:49 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by PerfInit View Post
What the previous poster is referring to is the inherent low speed handling challenges with the LR-Jet series due to the Fuel Tanks located at the wing tips. Lots of extra weight out there on a large "moment arm". Thus during low speed maneuvering, an overbanking tendency can occur with rapid onset and limited ability to correct for it. Proper airspeed control, adherence to minimum maneuvering speeds (depends on flap setting and weight) and limiting bank angles during maneuvers such as circling to land are normal SOP.
Similar to the MU2. In the Mitz the correction occurs only with spoilers - a double whammy.
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by PerfInit View Post
What the previous poster is referring to is the inherent low speed handling challenges with the LR-Jet series due to the Fuel Tanks located at the wing tips. Lots of extra weight out there on a large "moment arm". Thus during low speed maneuvering, an overbanking tendency can occur with rapid onset and limited ability to correct for it. Proper airspeed control, adherence to minimum maneuvering speeds (depends on flap setting and weight) and limiting bank angles during maneuvers such as circling to land are normal SOP.
It's been 30 years from my Learjet days, but I remember a maximum fuel in the tip tanks for landing being about 600lbs? The airplane was a joy to fly, but once you turned the yaw damper OFF for landing. All hands on deck!
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by PlaneS View Post
I'm unfamiliar with the Lear, would you mind elaborating on the safety margins you referred to?
The minimum speed for circling, Vref +...., & complying with maximum bank angle limitations, is essential in ensuring the aircraft does not depart controlled flight.

I'm sorry. I can't recall what the maximum bank angle limitation is during a circle. It has been a long time.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:54 PM   #14
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We would use Ref +20 back in the airnet days for circling. That speed would all for a small safety margin for turns in the pattern (usually about 20 degrees of bank max when configured). Wx at the time of the crash was gusty, if the crew got low and slow and then combined with an unpredictable gust, could be the perfect setup for a stall/spin event.
Prayers for the victims and their families....
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:23 PM   #15
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We would use Ref +20 back in the airnet days for circling. That speed would all for a small safety margin for turns in the pattern (usually about 20 degrees of bank max when configured). Wx at the time of the crash was gusty, if the crew got low and slow and then combined with an unpredictable gust, could be the perfect setup for a stall/spin event.
Prayers for the victims and their families....
So no artificial stall warning or aircraft buffet would occur as a precursor?
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:40 PM   #16
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The 35 has a Stall Warning Horn, Stick Shaker, and Stick Pusher but you could still have a rapid increase in AOA that would take you through all three to the stall very quickly.
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by HeavyDriver View Post
It's been 30 years from my Learjet days, but I remember a maximum fuel in the tip tanks for landing being about 600lbs? The airplane was a joy to fly, but once you turned the yaw damper OFF for landing. All hands on deck!
Negative, for the lear 35 max fuel for landing in each tip tank is 925. The 600lbs you are referring to is the amount of fuel left in a tip tank if the jet pumps fail (and your not lucky enough to have a model installed with the optional tip stand by pumps).
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Plainsman View Post
We would use Ref +20 back in the airnet days for circling. That speed would all for a small safety margin for turns in the pattern (usually about 20 degrees of bank max when configured). Wx at the time of the crash was gusty, if the crew got low and slow and then combined with an unpredictable gust, could be the perfect setup for a stall/spin event.
Prayers for the victims and their families....
We use Ref+ 10 and add a few knots depending on gust factor. Everytime I go through recurrent im with guys who's company just has them use Vref...scary. Throw in a circling maneuver with wind shear and you got yourself a recipe for disaster. Keep it fast people, this plane will bite you.
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Old Yesterday, 09:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Std Deviation View Post
Similar to the MU2. In the Mitz the correction occurs only with spoilers - a double whammy.
Hogwash. There's no "overbanking tendency" in a Mitsi. Also, if you're landing with the tips full, you're doing it wrong.
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Old Today, 07:51 AM   #20
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Hogwash. There's no "overbanking tendency" in a Mitsi. Also, if you're landing with the tips full, you're doing it wrong.
Care to elaborate? I always wondered why that thing had such a reputation.
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