Laptop ban coming soon?
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That's a proposal to ban laptops from CHECKED luggage.
Very few people check laptops. Laptops are expensive and airlines will not accept liability for loss or damage for laptops in checked luggage. Such a ban would change very little as very few passengers would be effected. |
I believe a lot of them end up in the belly with gate checked bags.
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Originally Posted by BMEP100
(Post 2451579)
I believe a lot of them end up in the belly with gate checked bags.
Maybe a few. I always take mine out. Probably a good idea to ban them, we can easily fight the fire in the cabin. Maybe not in the cargo bin. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2451586)
Maybe a few. I always take mine out.
Probably a good idea to ban them, we can easily fight the fire in the cabin. Maybe not in the cargo bin. Since lithiums, my personal policy with cargo smoke on to point the ship towards the nearest suitable while we run the checklist. |
Originally Posted by BMEP100
(Post 2451610)
"Easily"? My guess is you've never held a run away lithium battery. I had a phone battery run away once. It was amazing in its intensity. Not so easy.
Since lithiums, my personal policy with cargo smoke on to point the ship towards the nearest suitable while we run the checklist. If it's in the cargo bin, you have no idea what's going on and how bad it is, whether you need to divert, ditch, or land on I-405. But yes, immediate action for any on-board fire is going to be point to a suitable divert. |
The nearest suitable could be hours away when crossing the pond.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2451635)
We have special equipment onboard to deal with Li batteries now (in the cabin). Easily as in in it can be contained, and you know the status. FA will have something to talk about at the bar later.
If it's in the cargo bin, you have no idea what's going on and how bad it is, whether you need to divert, ditch, or land on I-405. But yes, immediate action for any on-board fire is going to be point to a suitable divert. Still, it would be preferable than in the hold. |
We can't ban PEDs from pax flights, everybody would just stay home and we'd be unemployed. Seriously.
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Very true. Like most other things, it's a calculated risk. Hopefully, the market and technology will develop batteries that the risk calculus becomes more favorable.
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The TSA says laptops need to go into the hold (from some countries) now FAA says they should not go into the hold. So what is the PAX supposed to do? Leave home without his laptop? Seems like the gov needs to get their message right - people will just stop flying if they cannot actually arrive and do business.
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Simple solution... just install a halon system in the cabin :D
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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
(Post 2452491)
Simple solution... just install a halon system in the cabin :D
That could solve a lot of problems... |
Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
(Post 2452491)
Simple solution... just install a halon system in the cabin :D
Lithium batteries are popular for one reason: they have the highest energy-density you can get in a battery. The problem with packing a lot of energy in a small space: regardless of the energy source, this has the potential to be a "bomb." Gas in a can, tritonal in a steel case, Semtex, or Lithium paste in a battery. The solution really should be what they did with the 787 after ITS Lithium battery fires: they put the battery in a steel containment box. The Litium fire can't breach the box, but it gets hot. The box is thermally isolated to prevent contact fires on the outside. Personally, I'd like to see a small steel baggage pod for Li-powered devices. Cargo fires have always worried me. Read the transcript of UPS 6, and you will wonder how politicians can value revenue over life. |
Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
(Post 2452735)
Cargo fires have always worried me. Read the transcript of UPS 6, and you will wonder how politicians can value revenue over life. Once you a have a full hull loss of a large pax jet due to a Li battery fire in cargo, then something will have to give. It will probably be an over-water flight, with drawn-out drama. They'll make a movie about it eventually. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2452634)
That could solve a lot of problems...
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Originally Posted by UAL T38 Phlyer
(Post 2452735)
I know you jest...but the crux is, halon doesn't work on Li battery fires. Halon works in conventional fires by displacing oxygen. Lithium batteries are self-oxidizing.
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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
(Post 2453166)
Ah, so like a magnesium fire?
Metal fires still need O2 but they burn so hot that they are just hard to put out (also hard to start). In some cases they can be hot enough to cause nearby compounds to break down and provide an oxidizer to support the fire in the absence of air. Oxygen is not the only potential oxidizer, especially if you have enough heat. Li battery fires actually have two things going on... The chemical energy stored in the battery is released via a short-circuit, generating a lot of current and therefore a lot of heat. This heat causes anything nearby to burn, including the battery compounds and adjacent cells, which then of course trigger a chain reaction as long as there are more batteries close by. You can't really extinguish it, you just have to keep it cool while it discharges it's energy. A large number of batteries (ie commercial shipment) would not be controllable once it gets going. Requirements to ship batteries with a lower state of charge reduce the risk. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2453266)
You can't really extinguish it, you just have to keep it cool while it discharges it's energy.
That said, I know of no airline that carries liquid nitrogen fire extinguishers. |
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
(Post 2453845)
I'm splitting hairs here, but it could be extinguished if it were cooled sufficiently. Cool it far enough that the energy dissipation is too low to permit the temperature to increase to the flashpoint of the battery or surrounding materials: no fire.
Metal box full of water, throw it in, close the lid and let it burn... sorry about your iTunes songs buddy. The large volume of water would be enough to compensate for the heat. Unfortunately this doesn't work for the cargo hold unless we start transporting blue wales in the hold like some Star Trek IV level stuff. Dang wales and their PEDs... |
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