Grumpy ATL Tower Controller a safety hazard!
12-17-2017, 04:54 PM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: Separating and expediting
Posts: 70
There are jerks and idiots in every profession, and their coworkers and supervisors I'm sure already know about it and are trying to deal with it. I'd suggest put up with it as politely as you can for those 5-10 minutes, then move on with your day and forget about it. I don't see how one of 10 controllers on one leg is worth that kind of stress.
12-17-2017, 06:36 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by ATCBob
There are jerks and idiots in every profession, and their coworkers and supervisors I'm sure already know about it and are trying to deal with it. I'd suggest put up with it as politely as you can for those 5-10 minutes, then move on with your day and forget about it. I don't see how one of 10 controllers on one leg is worth that kind of stress.
12-17-2017, 09:17 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Position: Wichita
Posts: 677
Originally Posted by Baby Busdriver
Good morning everyone,
My FO and I had a rather unpleasant interaction with an Atlanta Ground Controller, (he’s sometimes referred to as Mr. Happy,) on Thanksgiving morning. Several of you are probably well aware of this individual. I have posted some of the details on a few social media sites, but those were limited to Delta pilots. I am seeking input from other carriers, and operators regarding this controller. If you have any anecdotes, experiences, or incidents you would like to share please pass them on.
I wrote the following on the other media sites shortly after the incident and received a great deal of feedback:
“We operated Flight 353 from ATL to LIR this morning (10:30am, November 23, 2017) we called the north Atlanta ground controller for taxi instructions, we were taxiing on taxiway Dixie from ramp 6 east/south. He told us to "taxi via taxiway Gulf and hold short of (Blank)." The taxiway he mentioned was unintelligible, it was either stepped on or garbled, but we did not receive the taxiway clearance limit. Since there are no taxiway intersections prior to taxiway Foxtrot we taxied on Gulf and held short of Foxtrot while we tried to get a clarification. The first officer read back the clearance that we could decipher and asked for clarification on the hold short point. The controllers next transmission was blocked by another aircraft so our FO again asked for clarification. The ground controller immediately started to berate us for not reading back the clearance properly. The FO stated we had read back the clearance but did not get the clearance limit he had given us because it was garbled. The controller became more adversarial and said if we didn't get the clearance limit we should not have taxied. I told the FO I would take over the radio. I explained to the controller what had happened and he said something about us not reading the clearance back properly. His attitude was very adversarial and condescending. I asked for his Operating Initials, he refused to give them stating we could get the information we needed by the time of day and the position he was operating under.
This controller has a history of adversarial and condescending interactions. A few days ago, he was working south tower control and got another aircraft so flustered it took four transmissions for that aircraft to finally get his clearance correct. Several years ago, I had received taxi instructions from this same controller only to be chastised for taxiing without a taxi clearance. I said we had a taxi clearance, he said he had not cleared us to taxi. I told him to, "Mark the tapes," and we would speak telephonically. When I later called the tower, the supervisor advised me we were correct and he would speak to the controller in question.
I would not be bringing this up but his attitude is unacceptable, and a safety issue. His adversarial interactions lead to confusion, exasperation, distractions, and creates a rift in an otherwise stellar working relationship we share with the Atlanta Air Traffic Controllers. This distraction is a safety issue, we found ourselves questioning what had happened and why he has such a confrontational attitude toward pilots. This incident happened prior to takeoff and was a very unnecessary distraction. The controller/pilot relationship is a symbiotic and synergistic one. We; the pilots and controllers, are operating in harmony to operate safely in a very demanding environment and are very successful in part because of the great relationship that currently exists. Please explain to this controller that pilots do not intentionally make mistakes and don't mind being corrected, but to do so confrontationally does nothing but cause an unnecessary safety distraction.
It should be noted that both the First Officer and I were former Air Traffic Controllers and have both been involved in aviation for over 40 years each.”
I followed that thread with a separate thread outlining the follow up steps I took and recommendations that might be used should anyone else have a similarly unpleasant interaction.
1. After we landed in LIR I spoke with “Grumpy’s” supervisor, and explained to him that not only was his condescending attitude unacceptable it was a safety issue and was undermining the good rapport we currently shared with the Atlanta controllers. He said he would look into the issue and listen to the tapes.
He did get back to me on Tuesday and explained he had counseled the individual and made him listen to some tapes with him. He further stated that they would be listening to more tapes to try and stop any negative trends whether it be the controller in question or a different controller. He also said that several controllers where getting frustrated with the “apparent” degradation in more of the pilot’s radio discipline. As several have pointed out, and I have always felt, the radio congestion in Atlanta is unacceptable. I recommended they incorporate some of the practices in use at other busy control towers. I used DFW as an example. I suggested we incorporate their method of having the controllers call us when we are holding short of an inner taxiway, rather than all of us fighting to get a call in. I also suggested either signs be used to tell us when to switch to tower, or a note in the airport diagram saying at what point we should automatically switch. I also mentioned that we sometimes abbreviate things when talking to Atlanta ground control because we were concerned we would just add to the congestion. I further mentioned that during taxi we have several things that need be accomplished; briefings, takeoff data, communications with the flight attendants, PA’s, getting familiar with our new call sign, maintenance issues, possible wheel up times, change in runways, all factors that contribute to task saturation. Their issuance of complicated and verbose instructions only leads to further possibilities we will make an error in the readback requiring even more radio calls and further radio congestion.
2. I filed an ASR/ASAP report. After speaking with several CP’s or CP assistants it appears that is the best way to follow up, should you encounter the same thing.
3. I spoke with our ALPA Air Traffic Services Representative. He said he would look into this and follow up with his contacts/sources.
4. I spoke with one of the LCP’s that is involved with the ERC, he also said that filing an ASR/ASAP is the proper course of action.
5. I listened to the tapes of our interaction with the controller in question. Additionally, I compressed about 40 minutes of tape surrounding the incident. I further compressed that into 13 minutes of tape and saved it to an MP3 file.
6. I wrote a letter to the Tower Supervisor, but never sent it. I think the other steps have proven sufficient, and I was assured the incident would be addressed with her through ALPA.
7. I posted my complaint on several of our social media websites to gain insight and feedback.
I would recommend we always attempt to be professional in our phraseology. If you should find yourself in a position like we did with any controller acting as “Grumpy” does in Atlanta:
1. Note the time of day, Zulu preferred, and the frequency it occurred on.
2. Be polite, don’t argue with the controller or tie up the frequency. It has been pointed out to me that if we tie up the frequency we could be in violation of Federal Regulations. I have yet to find the reference source document, but there is a Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 2.32 a) that states:
§ 2.32 Interfering with agency functions.
(a) The following are prohibited:
(1)Interference. Threatening, resisting, intimidating, or intentionally interfering with a government employee or agent engaged in an official duty, or on account of the performance of an official duty.
3. File an ASR/ASAP.
4. Contact your union’s ATC or Safety Rep.
5. Consider going to Listen to Live ATC (Air Traffic Control) Communications | LiveATC.net and listening to your conversation to see whether you may have overreacted, or missed something. If the controller is being a jerk consider copying the file to an MP3 file for reference or further review. There is a link on the site to download an archived version to MP3.
Notes:
1. It has been pointed out that not only are some of the controllers are starting to get frustrated with our apparent lack of radio discipline, but some are going so far as to emulate “Grumpy’s” methodology and are being trained in “his ways!”
2. Most of the Atlanta Tower controllers, find his methodology absurd and are appalled by it. They even fear his attitude may be spreading.
I am reconsidering addressing this with the ATL Tower Chief. If there is sufficient feedback I will address her with the anecdotes, suggestions, and observations I gather from this, and the other media sites. My purpose is not to punish the individual, it is solely to address the safety hazard his interactions have on aircrew members at a critical phase in our operations. Hopefully he will modify his ways and the terror some of our crew-members’ face, addressing him, can be alleviated.
Thanks for your time.
My FO and I had a rather unpleasant interaction with an Atlanta Ground Controller, (he’s sometimes referred to as Mr. Happy,) on Thanksgiving morning. Several of you are probably well aware of this individual. I have posted some of the details on a few social media sites, but those were limited to Delta pilots. I am seeking input from other carriers, and operators regarding this controller. If you have any anecdotes, experiences, or incidents you would like to share please pass them on.
I wrote the following on the other media sites shortly after the incident and received a great deal of feedback:
“We operated Flight 353 from ATL to LIR this morning (10:30am, November 23, 2017) we called the north Atlanta ground controller for taxi instructions, we were taxiing on taxiway Dixie from ramp 6 east/south. He told us to "taxi via taxiway Gulf and hold short of (Blank)." The taxiway he mentioned was unintelligible, it was either stepped on or garbled, but we did not receive the taxiway clearance limit. Since there are no taxiway intersections prior to taxiway Foxtrot we taxied on Gulf and held short of Foxtrot while we tried to get a clarification. The first officer read back the clearance that we could decipher and asked for clarification on the hold short point. The controllers next transmission was blocked by another aircraft so our FO again asked for clarification. The ground controller immediately started to berate us for not reading back the clearance properly. The FO stated we had read back the clearance but did not get the clearance limit he had given us because it was garbled. The controller became more adversarial and said if we didn't get the clearance limit we should not have taxied. I told the FO I would take over the radio. I explained to the controller what had happened and he said something about us not reading the clearance back properly. His attitude was very adversarial and condescending. I asked for his Operating Initials, he refused to give them stating we could get the information we needed by the time of day and the position he was operating under.
This controller has a history of adversarial and condescending interactions. A few days ago, he was working south tower control and got another aircraft so flustered it took four transmissions for that aircraft to finally get his clearance correct. Several years ago, I had received taxi instructions from this same controller only to be chastised for taxiing without a taxi clearance. I said we had a taxi clearance, he said he had not cleared us to taxi. I told him to, "Mark the tapes," and we would speak telephonically. When I later called the tower, the supervisor advised me we were correct and he would speak to the controller in question.
I would not be bringing this up but his attitude is unacceptable, and a safety issue. His adversarial interactions lead to confusion, exasperation, distractions, and creates a rift in an otherwise stellar working relationship we share with the Atlanta Air Traffic Controllers. This distraction is a safety issue, we found ourselves questioning what had happened and why he has such a confrontational attitude toward pilots. This incident happened prior to takeoff and was a very unnecessary distraction. The controller/pilot relationship is a symbiotic and synergistic one. We; the pilots and controllers, are operating in harmony to operate safely in a very demanding environment and are very successful in part because of the great relationship that currently exists. Please explain to this controller that pilots do not intentionally make mistakes and don't mind being corrected, but to do so confrontationally does nothing but cause an unnecessary safety distraction.
It should be noted that both the First Officer and I were former Air Traffic Controllers and have both been involved in aviation for over 40 years each.”
I followed that thread with a separate thread outlining the follow up steps I took and recommendations that might be used should anyone else have a similarly unpleasant interaction.
1. After we landed in LIR I spoke with “Grumpy’s” supervisor, and explained to him that not only was his condescending attitude unacceptable it was a safety issue and was undermining the good rapport we currently shared with the Atlanta controllers. He said he would look into the issue and listen to the tapes.
He did get back to me on Tuesday and explained he had counseled the individual and made him listen to some tapes with him. He further stated that they would be listening to more tapes to try and stop any negative trends whether it be the controller in question or a different controller. He also said that several controllers where getting frustrated with the “apparent” degradation in more of the pilot’s radio discipline. As several have pointed out, and I have always felt, the radio congestion in Atlanta is unacceptable. I recommended they incorporate some of the practices in use at other busy control towers. I used DFW as an example. I suggested we incorporate their method of having the controllers call us when we are holding short of an inner taxiway, rather than all of us fighting to get a call in. I also suggested either signs be used to tell us when to switch to tower, or a note in the airport diagram saying at what point we should automatically switch. I also mentioned that we sometimes abbreviate things when talking to Atlanta ground control because we were concerned we would just add to the congestion. I further mentioned that during taxi we have several things that need be accomplished; briefings, takeoff data, communications with the flight attendants, PA’s, getting familiar with our new call sign, maintenance issues, possible wheel up times, change in runways, all factors that contribute to task saturation. Their issuance of complicated and verbose instructions only leads to further possibilities we will make an error in the readback requiring even more radio calls and further radio congestion.
2. I filed an ASR/ASAP report. After speaking with several CP’s or CP assistants it appears that is the best way to follow up, should you encounter the same thing.
3. I spoke with our ALPA Air Traffic Services Representative. He said he would look into this and follow up with his contacts/sources.
4. I spoke with one of the LCP’s that is involved with the ERC, he also said that filing an ASR/ASAP is the proper course of action.
5. I listened to the tapes of our interaction with the controller in question. Additionally, I compressed about 40 minutes of tape surrounding the incident. I further compressed that into 13 minutes of tape and saved it to an MP3 file.
6. I wrote a letter to the Tower Supervisor, but never sent it. I think the other steps have proven sufficient, and I was assured the incident would be addressed with her through ALPA.
7. I posted my complaint on several of our social media websites to gain insight and feedback.
I would recommend we always attempt to be professional in our phraseology. If you should find yourself in a position like we did with any controller acting as “Grumpy” does in Atlanta:
1. Note the time of day, Zulu preferred, and the frequency it occurred on.
2. Be polite, don’t argue with the controller or tie up the frequency. It has been pointed out to me that if we tie up the frequency we could be in violation of Federal Regulations. I have yet to find the reference source document, but there is a Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 2.32 a) that states:
§ 2.32 Interfering with agency functions.
(a) The following are prohibited:
(1)Interference. Threatening, resisting, intimidating, or intentionally interfering with a government employee or agent engaged in an official duty, or on account of the performance of an official duty.
3. File an ASR/ASAP.
4. Contact your union’s ATC or Safety Rep.
5. Consider going to Listen to Live ATC (Air Traffic Control) Communications | LiveATC.net and listening to your conversation to see whether you may have overreacted, or missed something. If the controller is being a jerk consider copying the file to an MP3 file for reference or further review. There is a link on the site to download an archived version to MP3.
Notes:
1. It has been pointed out that not only are some of the controllers are starting to get frustrated with our apparent lack of radio discipline, but some are going so far as to emulate “Grumpy’s” methodology and are being trained in “his ways!”
2. Most of the Atlanta Tower controllers, find his methodology absurd and are appalled by it. They even fear his attitude may be spreading.
I am reconsidering addressing this with the ATL Tower Chief. If there is sufficient feedback I will address her with the anecdotes, suggestions, and observations I gather from this, and the other media sites. My purpose is not to punish the individual, it is solely to address the safety hazard his interactions have on aircrew members at a critical phase in our operations. Hopefully he will modify his ways and the terror some of our crew-members’ face, addressing him, can be alleviated.
Thanks for your time.
01-03-2018, 06:04 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: In the TRACON
Posts: 109
Accuracy and professionalism in our communications goes both ways. Obviously, unprofessionalism by a controller needs to be addressed and corrected. With that said, this is a problem that controllers are working through multiple times per day with pilots.
I have gotten snarky responses when verifying the correct aircraft read back the clearance (either they were stepped on or didn't use their call sign in the read back), or when verifying that they are descending (it's been 10 miles and you're still at 12,000, so I'm double checking). I got some weird attitude this morning from one who was overtaking another aircraft on final and I asked him to slow to 160 knots. I am astounded at how many people check-in to approach without an ATIS code or their altitude: both of those require extra transmissions to verify (which is a stone-written requirement) and does lead to controller frustration when 8 airplanes in a row check-in with the wrong/no ATIS code.
My point is that it's a distraction and safety issue on both sides of the mic. We are all paid professionals with a common goal. If everybody always did it right (ATC too), we would have far less confusion for everyone.
I have gotten snarky responses when verifying the correct aircraft read back the clearance (either they were stepped on or didn't use their call sign in the read back), or when verifying that they are descending (it's been 10 miles and you're still at 12,000, so I'm double checking). I got some weird attitude this morning from one who was overtaking another aircraft on final and I asked him to slow to 160 knots. I am astounded at how many people check-in to approach without an ATIS code or their altitude: both of those require extra transmissions to verify (which is a stone-written requirement) and does lead to controller frustration when 8 airplanes in a row check-in with the wrong/no ATIS code.
My point is that it's a distraction and safety issue on both sides of the mic. We are all paid professionals with a common goal. If everybody always did it right (ATC too), we would have far less confusion for everyone.
01-04-2018, 06:12 AM
#15
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
It appears this is a continual problem. It is not ok for this to continue if the OPs story and claims of multiple events is true.
If I were really interested in doing something about this, and had nothing better to do with my time, here's what I would do if I were the OP...
The first step is to find out the name and mailing address of the Air Traffic Manager for the tower. The phone numbers are listed in the chart supplement (formerly known as the Airport Facility Directory). Call the number during normal business hours.
Write a letter to the ATM explaining the situation including dates, times, location, and the frequency used. In the CC field of the letter, include the FAA Administrator, Department of Transportation Secretary, your elected House of Representative member, both Senators, and anyone else you can think of like local FSDO manager, POI, etc. Do this for each occurrence.
It's quite possible the ATM will throw the letter in the trash and nobody else will inquire about the matter. It's also possible someone in congress will start asking questions, which no manager in the FAA is going to enjoy answering.
This type of action requires a fair bit of effort and probably won't endear your company callsign to the rest of the local ATC workforce, so it might be worth considering ATCBob's advice.
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